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eric.fradet

Curv, CPX not working very properly

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On 2/25/2022 at 9:13 PM, accumack said:

The riser covers had velcro on the underside of the harness and this was with a square reserve. With the the main in the container the harness was tight and pinched the covers closed.

I'm well familiar with the Handbury rig - I still have one in the closet. The reserve riser covers are kind of over the shoulders and, as you say, wrap over the risers and velcro under the harness. The main risers then route over the top of them, and I can see where if the main was still in place, they could impede the reserve risers from opening and clearing the covers.

What kind of square reserve did you have in it and how was it packed?

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On 2/25/2022 at 9:41 AM, accumack said:

The fact that Mr. Fradet is not objective and he has not recused himself from investigating, his bosses need to know he is using his position to Slander one of the most knowledgeable trustworthy people on parachute equipment in public for private gain. I in fact had an issue with riser covers on a Handbury rig years ago that did not release on a totaled main it did not cause any injuries and was just a nuisance easily felt with. Mr. Fradet you have no credibility in this issue!

Following up on this thread - has there been anymore information from Eric or a response from RI on this issue, or is it all just noise at this point?

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(edited)
16 hours ago, dudeman17 said:

I'm well familiar with the Handbury rig - I still have one in the closet. The reserve riser covers are kind of over the shoulders and, as you say, wrap over the risers and velcro under the harness. The main risers then route over the top of them, and I can see where if the main was still in place, they could impede the reserve risers from opening and clearing the covers.

What kind of square reserve did you have in it and how was it packed?

It was a Safety Flyer packed per Para-Flite instructions as I worked at PFI. The malfunction was Handbury used a bridge for the PC bridle of I believe was made of 1" Type 4 instead of running the on the horizontal backstrap. The handle somehow got between the bridge and backstrap. So it was a terminal opening.

 

Edited by accumack

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On 2/28/2022 at 7:42 AM, accumack said:

It was a Safety Flyer packed per Para-Flite instructions as I worked at PFI.

The Handbury rig has a two-pin (and two-riser) reserve container and would not accommodate a free-bag, which it's my understanding was developed at PF with the Safety Star and Safety Flyer.

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8 minutes ago, dudeman17 said:

The Handbury rig has a two-pin (and two-riser) reserve container and would not accommodate a free-bag, which it's my understanding was developed at PF with the Safety Star and Safety Flyer.

Hi dudeman,

The Handbury rig with a 2-pin reserve container did not use thru loops in the reserve container.  The loops only held the various flaps together.  The loops did not come up from the internal base/pack tray of the container.  This was similar to how the WonderHog 2-pin container was configured when the first square reserves came on the market.

Jerry Baumchen

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10 minutes ago, JerryBaumchen said:

The Handbury rig with a 2-pin reserve container did not use thru loops in the reserve container.  The loops only held the various flaps together.  The loops did not come up from the internal base/pack tray of the container. 

I'm sure that it did use a through loop. At least mine did. One long line with loops on both ends that threaded under the pack tray and up through the flap grommets. I have something hanging from my ceiling by one of them and am looking at it right now.

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21 minutes ago, dudeman17 said:

The Handbury rig has a two-pin (and two-riser) reserve container and would not accommodate a free-bag

Some old two pin rigs could have square reserves, with freebags allowing through-loops.  Rigs with only one short reserve riser on each side could have a short 2-riser set on each side attached to the L-bar links.  They worked great. At least one manufacturer was willing to do that.

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2 hours ago, dudeman17 said:

I'm sure that it did use a through loop. At least mine did. One long line with loops on both ends that threaded under the pack tray and up through the flap grommets. I have something hanging from my ceiling by one of them and am looking at it right now.

Hi dudeman,

Re:  I'm sure that it did use a through loop.

Possibly a later version had a thru loop; but, I doubt it.  And, I've been wrong before.

I do know that a local jumper wanted his Handbury reserve container changed to a thru loop so it would pack flatter.  So, I modified it to take a thru loop.

That Handbury rig did not have a thru loop when it came off the production line.

Jerry Baumchen

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(edited)
2 hours ago, sundevil777 said:

Some old two pin rigs could have square reserves, with freebags allowing through-loops.  Rigs with only one short reserve riser on each side could have a short 2-riser set on each side attached to the L-bar links.  They worked great. At least one manufacturer was willing to do that.

Hi Cliff,

Re:  Some old two pin rigs could have square reserves, with freebags allowing through-loops.

To the best of my knowledge, I am the first person ever to develop a packing method so this could be done.

Remember, at that time ParaFlite provided the free bags with their square reserve canopies.  And, those free bags did not have any grommets for thru loops.

At that time, I was building sport rigs with a 2-pin reserve container.  After thinking & thinking about it; Voila, the lite came on.

On the top face & the bottom face of the free bag I sewed a piece of Type 12, about 8" long.  I then installed two grommets thru those two pieces of Type 12, four grommets in total.  This allowed for a thru loop.

I then developed a packing procedure for this configuration.  I did three drop tests, timing each test per the TSO standard.  I then sent the test reports, drawings of the mod to the free bag, and the packing instructions that I had developed, to ParaFlite, asking for approval for this alteration.

About 2-3 weeks later, they sent me a nice letter approving my request.

I no longer have any information on all of this; including, no info on the packing procedure.  I wish I still did.

At one time, PD had the packing procedure, that I developed, in their packing manual.

Jerry Baumchen

Edited by JerryBaumchen
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(edited)
18 hours ago, dudeman17 said:

The Handbury rig has a two-pin (and two-riser) reserve container and would not accommodate a free-bag, which it's my understanding was developed at PF with the Safety Star and Safety Flyer.

It had 4 risers and was setup by Jim for the safety Flyer reserve. The loop did not come from the bottom of the container.

 

 

Edited by accumack
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Disclaimer: I am not a rigger, so I don't know all the variants like you guys might. But my Handbury rig most definitely does have the continuous through loop as described, and 2 risers. I still have the thing and I just looked at it again. The data thing is faded and the stamps are hard to read, but I believe it says DOM of July '79. It does say model FFE 202.

The reason I brought this topic up is that I did put a square reserve in it. It originally had one of Jim's Preserve rounds in it. but I got a Hobbit reserve for it, and Bill Gargano approved a method to put it on 2 risers, and he put a diaper on it so that it could be packed in the container the same way the round was. And I did use it once.

-------

Here's a question maybe one of you could answer. It's my understanding that the freebag developed for the Safety Star/Flyer had the line stow pouch on the side like they do today. Do either of you know exactly who invented that pouch?

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13 hours ago, dudeman17 said:

Disclaimer: I am not a rigger, so I don't know all the variants like you guys might. But my Handbury rig most definitely does have the continuous through loop as described, and 2 risers. I still have the thing and I just looked at it again. The data thing is faded and the stamps are hard to read, but I believe it says DOM of July '79. It does say model FFE 202.

The reason I brought this topic up is that I did put a square reserve in it. It originally had one of Jim's Preserve rounds in it. but I got a Hobbit reserve for it, and Bill Gargano approved a method to put it on 2 risers, and he put a diaper on it so that it could be packed in the container the same way the round was. And I did use it once.

-------

Here's a question maybe one of you could answer. It's my understanding that the freebag developed for the Safety Star/Flyer had the line stow pouch on the side like they do today. Do either of you know exactly who invented that pouch?

Hi dudeman,

In  post #60, I wrote:  I do know that a local jumper wanted his Handbury reserve container changed to a thru loop so it would pack flatter.  So, I modified it to take a thru loop.

I am thinking that someone did the same thing to the container that you have.

Jerry Baumchen

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On 3/2/2022 at 11:06 AM, accumack said:

It had 4 risers and was setup by Jim for the safety Flyer reserve. The loop did not come from the bottom of the container.

 

 

Hi Jim,

Can you tell us when the Safety Flyer came on the market?

Also, when did the 5-cell Swift reserve come on the market?

Curious minds want to know. ;P

Jerry Baumchen

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54 minutes ago, JerryBaumchen said:

Hi Jim,

Can you tell us when the Safety Flyer came on the market?

Also, when did the 5-cell Swift reserve come on the market?

Curious minds want to know. ;P

Jerry Baumchen

If I remember correctly the Safety Flyer was released to the public in 1978 and the Swift 5 cell reserve was early 1980s maybe April 1981. It was when the first Space Shuttle was launched as I was in Deland putting the finishing touches on the Harness and container and I got to see the shuttle from 10,000 feet and couple of days later the Swift System was introduced at the Easter boogie at Z-Hillz! The Handbury rig I had a problem with was one of the first one he built for square reserves and I carried it back from the 1979 Nationals at Richmond IN.

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5 hours ago, JerryBaumchen said:

In  post #60, I wrote:  I do know that a local jumper wanted his Handbury reserve container changed to a thru loop so it would pack flatter.  So, I modified it to take a thru loop.

I am thinking that someone did the same thing to the container that you have.

Well I bought it from Joe Crotwell who was the original owner. I think he worked at AASP and built it himself. So apparently he made it that way on his own preference.

 

If I could repeat the question...

19 hours ago, dudeman17 said:

It's my understanding that the freebag developed for the Safety Star/Flyer had the line stow pouch on the side like they do today. Do either of you know exactly who invented that pouch?

I've been trying to find the answer to that for some time and nobody seems to know or agree.

 

I'll shut up now.

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10 minutes ago, dudeman17 said:

Well I bought it from Joe Crotwell who was the original owner. I think he worked at AASP and built it himself. So apparently he made it that way on his own preference.

 

If I could repeat the question...

I've been trying to find the answer to that for some time and nobody seems to know or agree.

 

I'll shut up now.

Hi dudeman,

I'm not sure what you mean by 'had the line stow pouch on the side.'

The line stow pouches are/have always been on the bottom face of the free bag.

ParaFlite developed a canopy called the StratoFlyer.  After ownership of a fews months, they sent owners a survey about their experience with jumping the StratoFlyer.  From this survey, ParaFlite determined that a number/most of the malfunctions had to do with line stowage.  So, ParaFlite developed the line stowage pouch * to minimize/prevent problems with line deployment.

Jerry Baumchen

* Maybe better described as line non-stowage pouch.

 

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7 minutes ago, JerryBaumchen said:

I'm not sure what you mean by 'had the line stow pouch on the side.'

The line stow pouches are/have always been on the bottom face of the free bag.

Well that's what I meant. On the 'side' or bottom face as opposed to the end where the closing stows are.

 

11 minutes ago, JerryBaumchen said:

So, ParaFlite developed the line stowage pouch * to minimize/prevent problems with line deployment.

I'm aware of all that history behind it, I'm just trying to determine exactly who came up with it.

 

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(edited)
2 hours ago, dudeman17 said:

Well I bought it from Joe Crotwell who was the original owner. I think he worked at AASP and built it himself. So apparently he made it that way on his own preference.

 

If I could repeat the question...

I've been trying to find the answer to that for some time and nobody seems to know or agree.

 

I'll shut up now.

Dick Morgan at ParaFlite. He Built a bag for my Strato Cloud several years earlier with a stow pocket shortly before free packing.

 

Edited by accumack
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4 hours ago, accumack said:

If I remember correctly the Safety Flyer was released to the public in 1978 and the Swift 5 cell reserve was early 1980s maybe April 1981. It was when the first Space Shuttle was launched as I was in Deland putting the finishing touches on the Harness and container and I got to see the shuttle from 10,000 feet and couple of days later the Swift System was introduced at the Easter boogie at Z-Hillz! The Handbury rig I had a problem with was one of the first one he built for square reserves and I carried it back from the 1979 Nationals at Richmond IN.

Hi Jim,

The Space Shuttle's First Flight: STS-1 (nasa.gov)

Jerry Baumchen

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On 2/19/2022 at 6:52 AM, sfzombie13 said:

so you're saying that the tso applies even after changing equipment?  i thought they had to get a new tso if they change something.  interesting. 

 

you could pick apart one-offs and exceptions all day long and come up with any number of situations where something may or may not work as intended.  that doesn't make any of them likely or valid reasons to change anything. 

Yes, the FAA Technical Standard Order still applies even after minor changes. The manufacturer decides what is a minor change. Depending upon which FAA Regional office you are dealing with: maybe yes and maybe no.

The original Relative Workshop TSO on the Wondehog dates back to circa 1975. When They designed the Vector in 1981, RWS repeated the drop tests and submitted the results to the FAA. The FAA replied "Does it use the same materials?" "Does it use the same manufacturing processes?" "Will it accept the same canopies?" "If yes, then you don't need a new TSO."

To their credit RWS and now United Parachute Technologies have done numerous drop tests since then and military testing has pushed military Vectors, Microns, Sigmas, etc. well beyond any numbers published in civilian sources.

I helped Manley Butler with deployment testing back in 1992 and in 1994-1997 I helped Rigging Innovations with several drop tests.

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On 5/7/2022 at 11:30 PM, skyrick said:

Is this the same guy who was ragging on Icon containers last year?

Yes. I clicked on this thread hoping to see an update on the functionality and concern related to the Curve and instead it's no new information and folks discussing the history of rig development from 1981 onward. So no new information here?

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On 3/3/2022 at 4:44 PM, JerryBaumchen said:

Hi dudeman,

I'm not sure what you mean by 'had the line stow pouch on the side.'

The line stow pouches are/have always been on the bottom face of the free bag.

ParaFlite developed a canopy called the StratoFlyer.  After ownership of a fews months, they sent owners a survey about their experience with jumping the StratoFlyer.  From this survey, ParaFlite determined that a number/most of the malfunctions had to do with line stowage.  So, ParaFlite developed the line stowage pouch * to minimize/prevent problems with line deployment.

Jerry Baumchen

* Maybe better described as line non-stowage pouch.

 

Yes, line stowage pouches have always been on the bottom/back side of D-bags. By that we mean that the line stow pouch/pocket lays against the pack tray, towards the back-pad.

Other line stow configurations are limited to pilot emergency parachutes (EP). When we were developing the P124A/Aviator pilot emergency parachute, the long (20 inches or 30 cm) deployment bags were awkward to stand on end to stow lines, and I got tired of remembering which direction I had rolled the D-bag, so I suggested installing the pouch on the top or outer face of the D-bag. That became the production standard on Aviators. More recently, Para-Phernalia announced that riggers have the option of packing with the line-stow pouch on top or bottom.

Para-Tec's (Germany) "Wingman" series of PEPs are also designed around square canopies, but their D-bags have line stow pouches sewn to the backside or bottom side of the D-bag.

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