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Coreece

The Big Abortion Thread

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My father was always told that he, too, was severely premature (even more exciting in 1918), and not expected to live. I haven't looked at his birth certificate to confirm, though, and since he was born 7 months after his parents' marriage, one does wonder....

Wendy P.

 

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3 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

I agree that anyone opposed to abortion should be able to draw a real line in the sand. Zero means zero and some requires specific boundaries. If someone is unable to specifically describe those boundaries or their boundaries are changing that's fantastic but don't mumble through it. Instead, join the rest of us in opposing restrictions on others on vague grounds because that's what your gut is telling you that day.

According to recent surveys 40% of Americans were thinking with their guts. With the other 60% using the brains that evolution developed.

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3 minutes ago, Phil1111 said:

According to recent surveys 40% of Americans were thinking with their guts. With the other 60% using the brains that evolution developed.

Demographics might be why those of us who lived through the years of herd fecundity are more tolerant of a personal choice view about abortion.

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25 minutes ago, wmw999 said:

My father was always told that he, too, was severely premature (even more exciting in 1918), and not expected to live. I haven't looked at his birth certificate to confirm, though, and since he was born 7 months after his parents' marriage, one does wonder....

Wendy P.

 

Hi Wendy,

It only takes a little time in the Honeymoon Bed; but, you know that.

In the Fall of 1977 I worked in Japan for eight weeks.  My then wife came over for the last two weeks.  My son was born nine months later.

Jerry Baumchen

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2 minutes ago, JerryBaumchen said:

It only takes a little time in the Honeymoon Bed; but, you know that.

 

How do you know she knows that? Sporting one video of penguin porn online could easily be a misdirection. I think this needs it's own thread.

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(edited)
50 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

more tolerant of a personal choice view about abortion.

Libs word it as a matter of "individual conscience"

“Recognizing that abortion is a sensitive issue and that people can hold good-faith views on all sides, we believe that government should be kept out of the matter, leaving the question to each person for their conscientious consideration. . .”

"Libertarians also oppose the use of taxpayer funds or other government resources for abortion. Like other matters of individual conscience, abortion should be kept out of the public sphere. . ."

“The Libertarian Party calls for an end to government persecution and prosecution of the women who choose abortions and of the medical personnel who assist them. . .”

“We also call for an end to subsidies, an end to prescription requirements for contraception, and an end to restrictive demographic adoption policies."

"Those who truly want to reduce abortions should consider that a culture of freedom, persuasion, and real individual choice can accomplish far more than a culture of prohibition and punishment ever has.”

 

In other words, even if abortion is always murder all the time, the U.S only has jurisdiction over murders in the U.S, not in other cuntries. . .

 

Edited by Coreece

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(edited)
2 hours ago, Coreece said:

Libs word it as a matter of "individual conscience"

“Recognizing that abortion is a sensitive issue and that people can hold good-faith views on all sides, we believe that government should be kept out of the matter, leaving the question to each person for their conscientious consideration. . .”

"Libertarians also oppose the use of taxpayer funds or other government resources for abortion. Like other matters of individual conscience, abortion should be kept out of the public sphere. . ."

“The Libertarian Party calls for an end to government persecution and prosecution of the women who choose abortions and of the medical personnel who assist them. . .”

“We also call for an end to subsidies, an end to prescription requirements for contraception, and an end to restrictive demographic adoption policies."

"Those who truly want to reduce abortions should consider that a culture of freedom, persuasion, and real individual choice can accomplish far more than a culture of prohibition and punishment ever has.”

 

"In other words," even if abortion is always murder all the time, the U.S only has jurisdiction over murders in the U.S, not in other cuntries."

 

Hi Coreece,

Freudian slip?

Jerry Baumchen

PS)  IMO what the Libertarian Party stands for is insignificant as they represent too little of our population.

Edited by JerryBaumchen

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7 minutes ago, Coreece said:

Libs word it as a matter of "individual conscience"

“Recognizing that abortion is a sensitive issue and that people can hold good-faith views on all sides, we believe that government should be kept out of the matter, leaving the question to each person for their conscientious consideration. . .”

"Libertarians also oppose the use of taxpayer funds or other government resources for abortion. Like other matters of individual conscience, abortion should be kept out of the public sphere. . ."

“The Libertarian Party calls for an end to government persecution and prosecution of the women who choose abortions and of the medical personnel who assist them. . .”

“We also call for an end to subsidies, an end to prescription requirements for contraception, and an end to restrictive demographic adoption policies."

"Those who truly want to reduce abortions should consider that a culture of freedom, persuasion, and real individual choice can accomplish far more than a culture of prohibition and punishment ever has.”

 

"In other words," even if abortion is always murder all the time, the U.S only has jurisdiction over murders in the U.S, not in other cuntries."

 

Comes a time when you're driftin'
Comes a time when you settle down
Comes a light, feelings liftin'
Lift that baby right up off the ground

Oh, this old world keeps spinnin' 'round
It's a wonder, tall trees ain't layin' down
There comes a time

You and I, we were captured
We took our souls and we flew away
We were right, we were giving
That's how we kept what we gave away

Oh, this old world keeps spinnin' 'round
It's a wonder, tall trees ain't layin' down
There comes a time

Oh, this old world keeps spinnin' 'round
It's a wonder, tall trees ain't layin' down
There comes a time
There comes a time

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26 minutes ago, JerryBaumchen said:

PS)  IMO what the Libertarian Party stands for is insignificant as they represent to little of our population.

That, but also their view tends to be a (maybe) logical along the low intervention axis against which one can judge other approaches. Sometimes less is more. 
I’m happy to spend my money on lots of things that benefit others more than me, but I’m not necessarily anxious to spend on everything everyone wants. 
Wendy P. 

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(edited)
2 hours ago, JerryBaumchen said:

IMO what the Libertarian Party stands for is insignificant as they represent to little of our population.

But their view may appeal to many 'pro life' republicans that don't really have a strong opinion on the issue, or they're just 'pro life' because their wives are. (ok, whatever you say honey)  They just think pro-choice means pro-abortion and are turned off by 30 year-old arguments about how they want to control women, love the fetuses and hate the children - so they just withdraw from the issue and focus on those they actually care about, like beer, poker, football and not talking about controlling women's reproductive organs.

Good luck!

 

Edited by Coreece

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2 hours ago, JerryBaumchen said:

PS)  IMO what the Libertarian Party stands for is insignificant as they represent too little of our population.

Yep.  I'm glad they are around; they have some interesting ideas.  (And I knew the libertarian candidate for US president in 2004!)  But, like any pure ideology, their ideas don't work in practice.

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Post #891

The thing is, the abortion debate is about abortion, not about religion. I know Christians who are pro-choice, and I may know atheists who are anti-choice. The abortion debate is not about whether people need to get abortions, it's about whether an abortion can be chosen by a woman under circumstances that she, with the possible addition of her family and doctor, deem appropriate.

Wendy P.

***********************************************

Copied from the 2nd Amendment thread. Is this the "red meat" you mentioned?

Big problem with "deem appropriate." It should be rather obvious. I mean, seems that folks want to shame/punish/banish others that deem it appropriate to not take the shot. And the list goes from there....

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Difficult topic for sure. Anything that pulls in religion and emotion will remain controversial regardless of laws.

I tend to be a personal choice kinda guy. Can't imagine the mental anguish of a woman being forced to carry a rape created fetus to term. It's also difficult to accept irresponsible people using abortion as the primary method of birth control.

A womans right to control her body seems reasonable. It also seems reasonable that some limits/rules could be established to prevent behavior that repeatedly uses that right to terminate fetuses. Somewhere in this discussion there should be a position that can be compromised on. 

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(edited)
17 minutes ago, billeisele said:

It also seems reasonable that some limits/rules could be established to prevent behavior that repeatedly uses that right to terminate fetuses. 

This is just another form of saying that it is okay for good girls, but bad girls need to be controlled. How many women do you think use abortion as a primary form of birth control? And if a woman is so messed up and irresponsible that she does that, what kind of mother do you think she will make? Just let people make their own decisions. 

Edited by gowlerk
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30 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

This is just another form of saying that it is okay for good girls, but bad girls need to be controlled. How many women do you think use abortion as a primary form of birth control? And if a woman is so messed up and irresponsible that she does that, what kind of mother do you think she will make? Just let people make their own decisions. 

Does your last sentence apply to everything about ones body and health?

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(edited)
16 minutes ago, billeisele said:

 

Does your last sentence apply to everything about ones body and health?

It applies to all of those that have no effect on anyone else’s body.

Edited by gowlerk
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On 1/8/2022 at 11:18 AM, billvon said:

That's the rub, isn't it?  A lot of people honestly feel that fetuses are human beings, and thus in their calculus the protection of those human beings is more important than the right of women to get an abortion.

Are there a lot of people who feel that? Do they support counting pregnant women as two (or more) people during a census. Are they in favour of allowing any child tax credits to start at pregnancy in stead of at birth?

I will agree that a lot of people say they feel that fetuses are human beings, they just don't back up those feelings with actions other than actions to control women.

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Nice catch, actually. One thing is that the impact of an unvaccinated person is potentially far more widespread than a woman seeking an abortion, a smoker, or an alcoholic (even one who drives drunk). And in most public places, second hand smoke and drunk behavior are already illegal. It’s the damage to others that’s key, and the definition of a fetus as person vs. not-yet-person that’s also key, in my opinion at least  

Wendy P. 

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1 minute ago, SkyDekker said:

Are there a lot of people who feel that? Do they support counting pregnant women as two (or more) people during a census. Are they in favour of allowing any child tax credits to start at pregnancy in stead of at birth?

I will agree that a lot of people say they feel that fetuses are human beings, they just don't back up those feelings with actions other than actions to control women.

There are attempts to do that in some places — generally sponsored by pro-life groups trying to slide down that slippery slope. There are jurisdictions where a fatal accident involving a pregnant woman counts for two, and requirements in some places to dispose of fetal material as human remains, rather than as tissue. 
Wendy P. 

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16 minutes ago, wmw999 said:

There are attempts to do that in some places — generally sponsored by pro-life groups trying to slide down that slippery slope. There are jurisdictions where a fatal accident involving a pregnant woman counts for two, and requirements in some places to dispose of fetal material as human remains, rather than as tissue. 
Wendy P.

Those are all still control issue, none of those actually provide any benefit to a pregnant woman.

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18 minutes ago, SkyDekker said:

Are there a lot of people who feel that? 

A fair number, yes.  For example, look at how many states have laws where killing a pregnant woman is a double murder.  (There's a federal law as well but that only counts on federal property.)

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15 minutes ago, billvon said:

A fair number, yes.  For example, look at how many states have laws where killing a pregnant woman is a double murder.  (There's a federal law as well but that only counts on federal property.)

As stated above, this is another control issue.

Show me something where rights are conferred at conception. Something were benefits come into play.

(Texas has already been trying to get the death penalty for abortion providers...again, control)

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5 minutes ago, SkyDekker said:

As stated above, this is another control issue.

Show me something where rights are conferred at conception.

Sure.  In Alabama, feticide laws begin at conception.  The fetus then has the right to not be murdered by an assailant.  The law specifically states that this does not apply to abortions initiated by the mother.  Alaska, Arizona, Arkansas, Florida, Idaho, Kansas, Idaho, Kentucky and Mississippi have similar laws.

There are some states (like Georgia) that have a requirement that the fetus be "quick" (i.e. starting to move) to be defined as a feticide.

 

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