'O, wad some pow'r the giftie gie us. . .

[Coreece 189]

 1 hour ago, Phil1111 said:

2 hours ago, kallend said:

I don't go out of my way to antagonize anyone until they start pushing their religion-based agenda on me and my family.  Then they're fair game.

I agree, but sometimes you and I get carried away.

And I can get carried away pushing back, but honestly, to me it's not the one liners/insults that are so annoying.  I mean they can be, but many times there is value in the humor and we don't want to censor that. 

Also, it's been shown that sarcasm spurs creativity in both the giver and receiver.

 

1 hour ago, Phil1111 said:

i can understand the reactions from atheists who rightfully believe that religion is a danger to themselves and their families.

Me too, many of us here voiced concerns at one point or another, but there is a time and a place - and that time and place isn't in a thread when we're trying to have a discussion about interpreting climate data.  But like you said we tend to get carried away sometimes.

[JoeWeber 2,294]

1 hour ago, billvon said:

You regularly go out of your way here to use derogatory terms for religion even when no one is pushing anything on you. 

That is the rub, I'm thinking. Even when religious adherents are benignly passing out food baskets and rebuilding our barns they are too often still pursuing a broad agenda that includes the diminution of rights for certain people, controlling the contents of our libraries and school curriculua and, lately, the filling of our emergency rooms with the unvaccinated. There is much more, for sure. Yes, we atheists shouldn't get a free pass to be jerks at every opportunity but we also shouldn't be chided for taking exception to certain irrational impositions that do affect our lives and the lives of those we hold dear. Maybe while we're calming down a bit and searching for ways of understanding the religious can look for ways to understand why the entire construct of their "culture" can be a real life problem for others.

[billvon 2,380]

19 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

That is the rub, I'm thinking. Even when religious adherents are benignly passing out food baskets and rebuilding our barns they are too often still pursuing a broad agenda that includes the diminution of rights for certain people, controlling the contents of our libraries and school curriculua and, lately, the filling of our emergency rooms with the unvaccinated. 

I am sure there are people like that.

But I grew up in a very religious household, and we knew literally hundreds of people through our church.  And none of the people we knew there were trying to get books banned, or muslims deported, or get vaccines outlawed.  The one thing that I saw a lot of was opposition to abortion - I'd estimate 75% of the people in our social circle wanted it banned, compared to the ~50% of people who wanted it in public polls of that time.

I mean, there are plenty of people in the illiberal left who want right wing speakers censored, want minority groups treated differently in the eyes of the law and want GMO's, meat and (up until five years ago) vaccines banned.  But those don't mean that liberals in general want that - any more than extremists make all religious adherents extremist.

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

6 hours ago, BIGUN said:

There is a long list of your peers that do not think it an illogical belief.

List of Christians in science and technology

You say I'm just trying to be politically correct. I say I'm trying to be as respectful of another culture as I am of any other. 

Respect is a two way street.

When the evangelists say that 'anyone who doesn't believe what WE do is going to hell, my 'respect' for them goes way down.

When they scream how much they love Jesus, and then turn around and do basically the opposite of EVERTHING he taught, the same thing happens.

When they try to hide their discrimination behind 'sincere religious beliefs', while at the same time behaving in ways that blatantly violate those same beliefs, to expect me to 'respect those beliefs' is rather silly.

When they try to claim that Biden is the anti-christ, when their hero, Trump seems to fit the description a LOT better, when they call him "Joe & the Ho, ignoring the fact that the former first lady was a porn model...

That 'respect' is gone.
Completely, totally, utterly gone.

[Phil1111 908]

12 minutes ago, billvon said:

I am sure there are people like that.

But I grew up in a very religious household, and we knew literally hundreds of people through our church.  .. any more than extremists make all religious adherents extremist.

I'm from a similar background. Times have changed. In western countries as people moved away from a religious identity only two countries have weaponized religion, Poland and the US.

In the US evangelical Christians and the GOP have entered an unholy marriage. Poland is similar. India, obviously not a western country. Is now on a path to religious strife and insurrection. Is India Headed for an Anti-Muslim Genocide? India's president  "Modi’s Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) has achieved the astonishing feat of creating a deep sense of Hindu victimhood" With the result of racism and pseudo-nationalism driving religion based attacks on minorities.

Modi has weaponized religion. Non-believers and religious adherents. must always be on guard for such conduct. Such is the danger of mixing politics and religion. The danger of religious adherents looking the other way, feigning ignorance. When politicians use religion for political purpose.

[JoeWeber 2,294]

1 hour ago, billvon said:

I am sure there are people like that.

But I grew up in a very religious household, and we knew literally hundreds of people through our church.  And none of the people we knew there were trying to get books banned, or muslims deported, or get vaccines outlawed.  The one thing that I saw a lot of was opposition to abortion - I'd estimate 75% of the people in our social circle wanted it banned, compared to the ~50% of people who wanted it in public polls of that time.

I mean, there are plenty of people in the illiberal left who want right wing speakers censored, want minority groups treated differently in the eyes of the law and want GMO's, meat and (up until five years ago) vaccines banned.  But those don't mean that liberals in general want that - any more than extremists make all religious adherents extremist.

Sure but today and now isn't then and your experience. The book banning and school curricula problems today are reality and manifest, just look at Texas. Todays evangelicals may not want Muslims deported, I'll take your analysis, but they want them marginalized as they do LGBTQ folks. And, the active opposition to abortion issue is nontrivial enough to be a stand alone reason. It's the fundamental tenets of the beliefs that pervade the religious culture that are the problem, not the individual believers who often as not have no clue what their participation emboldens.

[wmw999 2,116]

It's a power struggle; for a long time, white gentlemen who attended the right church were automatically to be trusted with responsibility, power, and respect. Within the memory of lots of people contributing to this thread.

Then people went and began to say that maybe one didn't have to in fact cure cancer or bring about world peace to be as good as one of those guys. Which is threatening, because all of a sudden the goalposts have moved -- away. The thing is that those goalposts were always a whole lot farther for everyone else -- it's just that it doesn't matter if you're the one who can't automatically join the union and get a good steel mill job because your father did.

Wendy P.

[JoeWeber 2,294]

3 minutes ago, wmw999 said:

It's a power struggle; for a long time, white gentlemen who attended the right church were automatically to be trusted with responsibility, power, and respect. Within the memory of lots of people contributing to this thread.

Then people went and began to say that maybe one didn't have to in fact cure cancer or bring about world peace to be as good as one of those guys. Which is threatening, because all of a sudden the goalposts have moved -- away. The thing is that those goalposts were always a whole lot farther for everyone else -- it's just that it doesn't matter if you're the one who can't automatically join the union and get a good steel mill job because your father did.

Wendy P.

Okay.... so sometimes things accelerate too slowly to perceive. It's still reasonable, before you hit the lamp post, to hit the brakes, right?

[billvon 2,380]

21 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

It's the fundamental tenets of the beliefs that pervade the religious culture that are the problem, not the individual believers who often as not have no clue what their participation emboldens.

But if it's those central tenets, how do you account (for example) the Pope pushing same-sex civil unions and saying that people have a responsibility to fight climate change, or the Presbyterian church supporting gay pastors, or Southern Baptists adopting a zero-tolerance policy on sexual abuse?

To me it doesn't seem like the religions themselves are the problem.  It's the preachers who ally themselves with political parties for power and influence - and the politicians who see a group of potential supporters if they can pander _just_ the right way.  

[JoeWeber 2,294]

5 minutes ago, billvon said:

But if it's those central tenets, how do you account (for example) the Pope pushing same-sex civil unions and saying that people have a responsibility to fight climate change, or the Presbyterian church supporting gay pastors, or Southern Baptists adopting a zero-tolerance policy on sexual abuse?

To me it doesn't seem like the religions themselves are the problem.  It's the preachers who ally themselves with political parties for power and influence - and the politicians who see a group of potential supporters if they can pander _just_ the right way.  

I agree that the Catholic Pope, certainly there is no shortage of Popes, is simply pandering. Like the Southern Baptists, Presbyterians and all other politicians he needs a voter base to keep his party in power.

[gowlerk 1,902]

39 minutes ago, billvon said:

To me it doesn't seem like the religions themselves are the problem.

I can think of no religion that is inherently bad. Although Mormonism in its original form did  promote racism. And it and several others are actively misogynist. Religions are generally used to organize groups of people. Society does not exist without organized groups. And they promote tribalism almost as a matter of course, which we also need in order to thrive. They are almost always corrupted by leaders seeking power. They only differ in degree. In the end it is the leadership that is harmful. They are able to gain a lot of power with almost no accountability. The most obvious example is possibly the most corrupt organization that has ever existed. The Holy Roman Church and its empire. And it is not because of evil theology, it is because of the power it has been able to amass and hang onto over many centuries. It is clearly on the decline now but it has a long way to go. 

[winsor 185]

10 hours ago, gowlerk said:

See above, it is not any less ludicrous. Scientology is my favourite example of fools believing in foolishness. But there are so many to choose from. 

Fictionology's my favorite:

https://www-theonion-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.theonion.com/scientology-losing-ground-to-new-fictionology-1819567847/amp?amp_js_v=a6&amp_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQKKAFQArABIIACAw%3D%3D#aoh=16413478652051&amp_ct=1641347863642&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&amp_tf=From %1%24s&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theonion.com%2Fscientology-losing-ground-to-new-fictionology-1819567847

[gowlerk 1,902]

4 minutes ago, winsor said:

Fictionology's my favorite:

I once had a go at starting a religion called Kenism. The first rule of Kenism is that no one is ever allowed to make money from Kenism. Least of all Ken.

[billvon 2,380]

3 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

I agree that the Catholic Pope, certainly there is no shortage of Popes, is simply pandering. 

Given that he's making a lot of Catholics really mad, I don't think he is in this case.

[ryoder 1,380]

1 hour ago, winsor said:

Fictionology's my favorite:

https://www.theonion.com/scientology-losing-ground-to-new-fictionology-1819567847

The Onion is way behind Zappa. He released "Joe's Garage" in 1979.

In Act 2, Joe is in "a quandary, being devoured by the swirling cesspool of his own steaming desires" and seeks redemption; he decides to "pay a lot of money" to the First Church of Appliantology, owned by L. Ron Hoover, an amount of fifty bucks ("A Token of My Extreme"). He learns from Hoover that he is a "Latent Appliance Fetishist", learns German, dresses like a housewife and goes to a club called the "Closet", filled with sexual appliances.

Wikipedia: Joe's Garage

 

[ryoder 1,380]

1 hour ago, gowlerk said:

I once had a go at starting a religion called Kenism. The first rule of Kenism is that no one is ever allowed to make money from Kenism. Least of all Ken.

The one true religion is Dudeism. If you don't believe in it, well, you know, that's just like, uh, your opinion, man.

[murps2000 86]

3 hours ago, ryoder said:

The one true religion is Dudeism. If you don't believe in it, well, you know, that's just like, uh, your opinion, man.

I don’t know about anyone else but I take comfort in knowing you’re out there. Takin’ ‘er easy for all of us sinners.

[Coreece 189]

13 hours ago, wolfriverjoe said:

19 hours ago, BIGUN said:

You say I'm just trying to be politically correct. I say I'm trying to be as respectful of another culture as I am of any other. 

Respect is a two way street.

And in this thread, you're the roadblock.

[JoeWeber 2,294]

9 hours ago, billvon said:

Given that he's making a lot of Catholics really mad, I don't think he is in this case.

There's always the long game of staying relevant. People don't often quit religion, or change their faith system, because their current faith angered them. Mostly they just scoff, hang in there, and do what religionists have ever done: cherry pick what they like and enjoy the camaraderie. Don't forget that Catholic pretzel twisters are the same happy bunch that jailed Galileo, shunned Darwin and now teach that evolution is compatible with the bible. 

[BIGUN 1,048]

18 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

Don't forget that Catholic pretzel twisters are the same happy bunch that jailed Galileo, shunned Darwin and now teach that evolution is compatible with the bible. 

As you said in post #56, "Sure but today and now. . . " I have to agree with Bill. Like him was raised Roman Catholic and still have on toe in the water (family) and have been impressed with his approach, 1) when asked about Gays, his response was, "Who am I to judge?" and 2) He just told Biden to keep taking communion - in spite of his stance on Abortion.

These two items have needed to be addressed for awhile and the comfort it's given to Catholics around the world speaks volumes as to future direction.   

Edited January 5, 2022 by BIGUN

[BIGUN 1,048]

14 hours ago, wolfriverjoe said:

That 'respect' is gone.
Completely, totally, utterly gone.

Morning,

Do you denigrate all African-Americans because of a few thugs in Chicago, LA, NY, etc.?  

[JoeWeber 2,294]

18 minutes ago, BIGUN said:

As you said in post #56, "Sure but today and now. . . " I have to agree with Bill. Like him was raised Roman Catholic and still have on toe in the water (family) and have been impressed with his approach, 1) when asked about Gays, his response was, "Who am I to judge?" and 2) He just told Biden to keep taking communion - in spite of his stance on Abortion.

These two items have needed to be addressed for awhile and the comfort it's given to Catholics around the world speaks volumes as to future direction.   

I chose Edward as my Confirmation name at the Church of the Transfiguration in San Jose, CA. In accordance with the deal with my Mother, and enforced by my Father, once confirmed I could quit. I never set foot inside again. But it's ever been thus: religion comes on your mothers knee or at the point of a spear (or a cuff on the ear).

It wasn't without valuable lessons, however. I was especially inspired, and very much took to heart, the concept of the collection plate. I just decided to ask for a minimum donation of $23 before each service.

[olofscience 420]

29 minutes ago, BIGUN said:

Morning,

Do you denigrate all African-Americans because of a few thugs in Chicago, LA, NY, etc.?  

It's a lot easier to change religions than your skin colour though...

[BIGUN 1,048]

8 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

I just decided to ask for a minimum donation of $23 before each service.

I thought it was $24.00 now or is that with the "I jump with Trevor" discount? 

[BIGUN 1,048]

2 minutes ago, olofscience said:

It's a lot easier to change religions than your skin colour though...

But what if religion IS your skin color.