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gowlerk

Why do fundamentalists hate America?

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22 minutes ago, Coreece said:

They have also lived with corrupt politicians since forever, house people, build schools and create jobs.  They know what's best for their community.  And that is just one African American family that started all this. 

The parties of God long ago gave up any claim to political neutrality. It's not a question of anything else other than right and wrong. And it is damn wrong that they don't pay tax on their properties and income. Yes they do some good and should be applauded when they do but Tabernacles and huge Glass Churches aren't things the non-religious or others of different faiths should be paying for.

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13 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

And it is damn wrong that they don't pay tax on their properties and income.

We were all liable for taxes, just not the church/school/housing stuff - and no, you're not really paying for the church, you're just not making money off it - not sure if they ever got some government cheese for the school or housing, but nothing wrong with that part even if they did.

I guess you have a case against them for the political speeches if you want, but you'll probably have to try and get past me first.

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16 minutes ago, Coreece said:

We were all liable for taxes, just not the church/school/housing stuff - and no, you're not really paying for the church, you're just not making money off it - not sure if they ever got some government cheese for the school or housing, but nothing wrong with that part even if they did.

I guess you have a case against them for the political speeches if you want, but you'll probably have to try and get past me first.

The argument would be that taxes not paid by some are made up elsewhere to provide services all use, including the Church. They don't have their own roads, cops and fire departments, right?

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 15 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:
32 minutes ago, Coreece said:

We were all liable for taxes, just not the church/school/housing stuff - and no, you're not really paying for the church, you're just not making money off it - not sure if they ever got some government cheese for the school or housing, but nothing wrong with that part even if they did.

I guess you have a case against them for the political speeches if you want, but you'll probably have to try and get past me first.

The argument would be that taxes not paid by some are made up elsewhere to provide services all use, including the Church. They don't have their own roads, cops and fire departments, right?

I thought we were talking about them having politicians giving speeches.

But in general, there might still be property taxes, not really sure how it all varies.  Treat it like other non profits in similar categories.

But still, how does any of this solve whatever it is exactly Phil's complaining about, even if churches do get penalized and lose their tax exempt status?

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1 hour ago, JoeWeber said:

And it is damn wrong that they don't pay tax on their properties and income. Yes they do some good and should be applauded when they do but Tabernacles and huge Glass Churches aren't things the non-religious or others of different faiths should be paying for.

Agreed.

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11 minutes ago, Coreece said:

I thought we were talking about them having politicians giving speeches.

Well, right - that's just because some (not all or most) churches use their tax exempt status to become unofficial political headquarters for various politicians. 

The argument that religions have fallen back on is "you can't tax us!  Goes against the First Amendment."  That's a shaky argument but it's been used in the past.  But if they are functioning as arms of an election campaign, even that argument is invalid.

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1 hour ago, JoeWeber said:

The parties of God long ago gave up any claim to political neutrality. It's not a question of anything else other than right and wrong. And it is damn wrong that they don't pay tax on their properties and income. Yes they do some good and should be applauded when they do but Tabernacles and huge Glass Churches aren't things the non-religious or others of different faiths should be paying for.

What about the jets?

 

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17 minutes ago, Coreece said:

I thought we were talking about them having politicians giving speeches.

But in general, there might still be property taxes, not really sure how it all varies.  Treat it like other non profits in similar categories.

But still, how does any of this solve whatever it is exactly Phil's complaining about, even if churches do get penalized and lose their tax exempt status?

It's not important to you that it makes me happy?

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1 minute ago, ryoder said:

What about the jets?

That's different!  Without those jets he'd have to travel with . . . other people.  How do you expect anyone to live like that?  You really expect someone to be able to do the Lord's Work after being in a plane packed with people?

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3 minutes ago, billvon said:

But if they are functioning as arms of an election campaign, even that argument is invalid.

Understood, but Phil's complaining about about their political influence in Church.  Taxing isn't going to stop that, it encourages it.

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(edited)
31 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

It's not important to you that it makes me happy?

Like I said, all you have to do is get past me.  I have all the incriminating evidence.  Not sure if this is legal or not, but I can sell the videos for about $3.5 million, you get to destroy a church and prove to the world whatever point it is that makes you so happy.  Then I can buy back the church and continue business as usual.

 

Edited by Coreece

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17 minutes ago, Coreece said:
31 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

It's not important to you that it makes me happy?

Like I said, all you have to do is get past me.  I have all the incriminating evidence.  Not sure if this is legal or not, but I can sell the videos for about $3.5 million, you get to destroy a church and prove to the world whatever point it is that makes you so happy.  Then I can buy back the church and continue business as usual.

Ok, you drive a hard bargain - your silence is killing me.  $4 million, no politics (except in  locations outside of church and preferably marked with a fish)

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3 hours ago, Coreece said:

I thought we were talking about them having politicians giving speeches.

But in general, there might still be property taxes, not really sure how it all varies.  Treat it like other non profits in similar categories.

But still, how does any of this solve whatever it is exactly Phil's complaining about, even if churches do get penalized and lose their tax exempt status?

Hi Coreece,

Re:  there might still be property taxes

Based upon what I have read over the last 50 yrs; I ask that you show me one instance of this.

Just askin'.

Jerry Baumchen

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1 hour ago, JerryBaumchen said:
5 hours ago, Coreece said:

I thought we were talking about them having politicians giving speeches.

But in general, there might still be property taxes, not really sure how it all varies.  Treat it like other non profits in similar categories.

But still, how does any of this solve whatever it is exactly Phil's complaining about, even if churches do get penalized and lose their tax exempt status?

Hi Coreece,

Re:  there might still be property taxes

Based upon what I have read over the last 50 yrs; I ask that you show me one instance of this.

Just askin'.

Jerry Baumchen

Not really sure why I kept thinking that.  There may have been something I read about places of residence like convents or rectories, but like I said I'm not really sure.  That's not really the part I'm interested in anyway, so I'll just concede that point.

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6 minutes ago, Coreece said:

There may have been something I read about places of residence like convents or rectories, but like I said I'm not really sure. 

It may have been about church owned rental properties. They have sometimes been controversial.

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5 hours ago, Coreece said:

Like I said, all you have to do is get past me.  I have all the incriminating evidence.  Not sure if this is legal or not, but I can sell the videos for about $3.5 million, you get to destroy a church and prove to the world whatever point it is that makes you so happy.  Then I can buy back the church and continue business as usual.

 

Now you're playing silly games. Look man, no one here faults what you believe if we don't need to be affected by it. With or without your coreligionists have a great time in your houses of worship. Just don't claim a subsidy or use that advantage to claim others to your belief. Do that and no one will say a word.

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16 hours ago, billvon said:

That's different!  Without those jets he'd have to travel with . . . other people.  How do you expect anyone to live like that?  You really expect someone to be able to do the Lord's Work after being in a plane packed with people?

That and the 35,000 square foot house. The staff to service his needs. To wash his feet.

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1 hour ago, Phil1111 said:

That and the 35,000 square foot house. The staff to service his needs. To wash his feet.

I'm in a discussion with a Christian Motorcycle Club when one of them quotes Hagin. I ask him - doesn't it bother you guys that he lives in a mansion, has maids and butlers, flies a jet around the world and is everything opposite of what the bible teaches. Well, you simply don't understand the Doctrine of Prosperity. The what? The Doctrine of Prosperity. I guess not.  So, I look it up later - yup, it's a thing. 

Prosperity Theology

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10 minutes ago, BIGUN said:

I'm in a discussion with a Christian Motorcycle Club when one of them quotes Hagin. I ask him - doesn't it bother you guys that he lives in a mansion, has maids and butlers, flies a jet around the world and is everything opposite of what the bible teaches. Well, you simply don't understand the Doctrine of Prosperity. The what? The Doctrine of Prosperity. I guess not.  So, I look it up later - yup, it's a thing. 

Prosperity Theology

I personally believe in that theology. I.e. people like yourself that help others, like your military support groups. Will have positive feelings about themselves and the others that they surround themselves with. Which encourages self esteem, lowers blood pressure, stress, etc. All of which leads to success. The same when you give money to worthy causes.

Of course on the other end a scamming clergy-person who lives in a 35,000 square foot house. Moves their ass around at 318 gallons an hour in their Falcon 7x.Should drop dead tomorrow over the associated guilt. So I guess that theory is bunk.

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Oh yeah, prosperity gospel. God loves you and wants you to be successful, so if you are, it's because God thinks you should be. No better way to avoid having to share the benefits of success with anyone other than the church who gave you that thought pattern; not the systems and people whe gave you the tools to achieve that success (education, connections, family money), not the people who you might have run past on the way to that success.

I took a Sociology of Religion class in college (taught by a wonderful professor, who was an honest believer and skeptic -- yes, it happens). Already in the early 1970's he had the Reverend Ike come talk to us. The professor (Dr. Martin, a wonderful professor) presented him as a personal friend, and an example of where religion could go, in a completely non-judgmental way. His job was to give us the tools to evaluate religion and its impact on society for ourselves. I linked him because I recommend him highly.

Wendy P.

 

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