Kim Potter found guilty

[JerryBaumchen 1,047]

5 hours ago, BIGUN said:

Yeah, Jerry. Just like that. How sad is that.

Hi Keith,

About 30 yrs ago, some local scumbag, had a 10 yr old boy held hostage inside the boy's home.  A Portland Police sniper saw a clear shot, thru a window, at the scumbag, so he fired his rifle.  He killed the 10 yr old kid.

Jerry Baumchen

[gowlerk 1,904]

Kim Potter was sentenced to 2 years this morning. Seems to me to be the most reasonable outcome available. I'm sure some others will disagree.

https://www.mprnews.org/story/2022/02/18/judge-to-sentence-former-officer-kimberly-potter-friday-in-the-killing-of-daunte-wright

Edited February 18, 2022 by gowlerk

[Phil1111 910]

On 12/24/2021 at 6:46 AM, BIGUN said:

I struggle with this. Cops are taught to wear the Taser on their non-dominant side and the pistol on their dominant side. The Taser is yellow, the pistol is black. 

How many times have jumpers mistaken a Velcro cutaway handle with a ripcord? I guess I must be a little sexist because the debate in my mind keeps coming back to a 50 yr old woman. As compared to a experienced cop reacting to the same circumstances. I think of all the times hunters have shot other hunters, shot themselves, shot the wrong species of deer.

"In 15 previous cases over the past two decades in which officers said they confused their weapons, three were convicted of a crime, including two officers who fired fatal shots. Johannes Mehserle, a transit officer who shot and killed Oscar Grant III at a train station in Oakland, Calif., in 2009, was sentenced to two years in prison. Robert Bates, a volunteer sheriff’s deputy in Tulsa, Okla., was sentenced to four years in prison after he shot and killed a man while meaning to fire his Taser."

I struggle with this.

Edited February 18, 2022 by Phil1111

[BIGUN 1,051]

14 minutes ago, Phil1111 said:

On 12/24/2021 at 6:46 AM, BIGUN said:

I struggle with this. Cops are taught to wear the Taser on their non-dominant side and the pistol on their dominant side. The Taser is yellow, the pistol is black. 

How many times have jumpers mistaken a Velcro cutaway handle with a ripcord? I guess I must be a little sexist because the debate in my mind keeps coming back to a 50 yr old woman. As compared to a experienced cop reacting to the same circumstances. I think of all the times hunters have shot other hunters, shot themselves, shot the wrong species of deer.

"In 15 previous cases over the past two decades in which officers said they confused their weapons, three were convicted of a crime, including two officers who fired fatal shots. Johannes Mehserle, a transit officer who shot and killed Oscar Grant III at a train station in Oakland, Calif., in 2009, was sentenced to two years in prison. Robert Bates, a volunteer sheriff’s deputy in Tulsa, Okla., was sentenced to four years in prison after he shot and killed a man while meaning to fire his Taser."

I struggle with this.

I guess I'm not tracking. What's your struggle, Phil?

[Phil1111 910]

6 minutes ago, BIGUN said:

I guess I'm not tracking. What's your struggle, Phil?

That I'm sexist!

[BIGUN 1,051]

6 hours ago, Phil1111 said:

That I'm sexist!

If you're referring to Bates as an "experienced" cop; he was no where close. He was a friend of the Sheriff and when he retired from business (after donating big money to the Sheriff's campaign) decided he would approach his friend about becoming a reserve (volunteer) deputy at ~70 years old. First weak link in the chain. It was quite the shit show. 

[DougH 270]

20 hours ago, gowlerk said:

Kim Potter was sentenced to 2 years this morning. Seems to me to be the most reasonable outcome available. I'm sure some others will disagree.

I really struggle with getting to a solid position on this.

She made the direct error that resulted in the death of this young man, but there are a handful of things the stacked the deck and made a terrible outcome more likely in the first place. The two years pale in comparison to the regret and anguish she will live for the rest of her life, and no amount of years in prison would make up for the loss of this family's son.

I think the bigger sentence should be handed down to our laws and policing institutions which encourage traffic stops and other police interactions over minor infractions, with error prone undertrained cops that are following play book that is practically designed for escalation.

I would trade the 2 years for a re-write of policies that would have avoided him being stopped in the first place, or that would have resulted in the cops letting him drive away because they were trained that it is safer for everyone involved. 

 

[GeorgiaDon 340]

1 hour ago, DougH said:

I would trade the 2 years for a re-write of policies that would have avoided him being stopped in the first place, or that would have resulted in the cops letting him drive away because they were trained that it is safer for everyone involved. 

Firstly, laws that are not enforced are not laws at all.  If traffic laws are not enforced, how many more people will die because of drivers behaving recklessly?  Some jurisdictions are, I have read, experimenting with having traffic laws enforced by a specialized force that does not carry firearms or have arrest powers, they just write tickets.  

Secondly, Duante Wright was not being arrested due to an expired tag or an air freshener hanging from his rear view mirror.  He was being arrested due to a warrant that was issued when he failed to appear in court to answer charges of assault using a firearm, following an incident where he (allegedly) choked a woman, threatened her with a handgun, and searched her including groping into her bra looking for money he thought he was owed.  Should the police not enforce arrest warrants either?  Why would anyone show up in court at their arraignment if they know the police won't enforce warrants?

It's not clear that Officer Potter was aware of this at the time (and so it might or might not be germane to the incident), but Duante Wright had a firearm in his possession at the time of the stop, which would have resulted in felony charges due to his status as a felon.  Likely that played into his decision to resist arrest and flee.  Certainly Mr. Wright did not deserve to die for these infractions.  However his actions contributed a lot to instigating and inflaming the situation.  

So again, how are things supposed to work if we adopt a policy that traffic laws and arrest warrants are not to be enforced?

[DougH 270]

1 hour ago, GeorgiaDon said:

So again, how are things supposed to work if we adopt a policy that traffic laws and arrest warrants are not to be enforced?

Did I state that traffic laws or warrants shouldn't be enforced, or that he didn't contribute to the circumstances that led to his death? I will go back and check!

Traffic laws are already constantly under enforced at the individual discretion law enforcement, and the main driver of improved road safety over the past few decades is because of vehicle technology, not more dedicated enforcement of traffic laws. I won't argue that we shouldn't be stopping reckless drivers, or impaired drivers, but what percentage of stops fit into that category versus having your number come up when you are driving 10 over like 95% of the other people on the same highway as you.

I didn't know any of the background that you are stating, and I may not have had him over for dinner, but it doesn't change my opinion that it tragic that there is a person dead, and there is a cop that will be haunted by this for the rest of her life.

I am speaking out of ignorance, but I just think we can probably figure out a better way to skin this cat.

 

 

[GeorgiaDon 340]

I agree that his death is tragic and should not have happened.  I believe I said as much.

Again, you said:

4 hours ago, DougH said:

I would trade the 2 years for a re-write of policies that would have avoided him being stopped in the first place, or that would have resulted in the cops letting him drive away because they were trained that it is safer for everyone involved. 

Perhaps I misunderstand, but it seems to me you are saying he should not have been stopped, and when he resisted arrest the police should have let him drive away.  Is that still your position, knowing that he was being arrested because he had a warrant for aggravated assault with a firearm?  Not inviting someone over for dinner is one thing, letting an (accused) violent criminal who assaults people with a firearm just drive away is something else entirely.  I cannot agree that letting this person drive away is "safer for everyone involved".

Do the police sometimes overreact, with unnecessary tragic consequences?  Absolutely!  Is there a pressing need for better training, and more rational policies about how to enforce laws, especially laws regarding "nuisance" offenses?  Certainly!  But I'd also argue that the police are often stuck with "head's you lose, tails you lose" situations.  Perhaps the police would be less prone to overreact if they were less likely to be shot and sometimes killed while making traffic stops.  Traffic stops are second only to domestic disturbance calls in the number of police shot and killed.  It's not unreasonable when they pull someone over to assume the driver or passengers are armed, and willing to resort to violence.  If they let someone drive away despite a warrant, and later that person injured or killed someone, you can be sure the public/media would be screaming for that officer to be fired, and not without cause.

Here is a real world example of a situation that actually occurred.  Maybe you will recognize it.  A woman called police to report an incident that resulted in her boyfriend being charged with third degree sexual assault, trespassing, and disorderly conduct involving domestic abuse.  A warrant is issued for the boyfriend's arrest, as well as a restraining order.  About a month later she calls 911 to report that the boyfriend has come to her house (despite the restraining order), took her car keys and her three children (which he does not have legal custody of), and is putting the kids in the car.  Police, who have been informed of the warrant, are dispatched to the scene, where they find several women arguing and yelling at a man.  When they attempt to detain the man he fights with police, refuses to drop a knife he is holding in his hand despite being tased twice, and tries to get into the car and drive away with the woman's three kids.  At this point, what should the police do?

[kallend 1,623]

Why aren't the police in England, Australia, France, Italy, etc., killing civilians at this rate?

Because every day we get more Sacrifices to the Second Amendment, a religion that they don't have.

[Phil1111 910]

6 hours ago, GeorgiaDon said:

Firstly, laws that are not enforced are not laws at all.... 

So again, how are things supposed to work if we adopt a policy that traffic laws and arrest warrants are not to be enforced?

Agree, s*#t happens when you're a felon fleeing the law.

3 hours ago, DougH said:

Did I state that traffic laws or warrants shouldn't be enforced, or that he didn't contribute to the circumstances that led to his death? I will go back and check!....

I am speaking out of ignorance, but I just think we can probably figure out a better way to skin this cat.

Agree, it sure seems to be happening allot. Why does it seem to happen so much more in the US?

[kallend 1,623]

4 hours ago, Phil1111 said:

 

Agree, it sure seems to be happening allot. Why does it seem to happen so much more in the US?

List the other developed countries in which the police on a simple traffic stop have to assume that the driver is armed.

[gowlerk 1,904]

5 minutes ago, kallend said:

List the other developed countries in which the police on a simple traffic stop have to assume that the driver is armed.

 

 

6 minutes ago, kallend said:

Agree, it sure seems to be happening allot. Why does it seem to happen so much more in the US?

The number 2 comes mind. It's sort of like potty humour. The amendment is a piece of shit.

[Faicon9493 114]

POST DELETED

Edited February 22, 2022 by Faicon9493

[BIGUN 1,051]

On 2/19/2022 at 9:32 PM, kallend said:

List the other developed countries in which the police on a simple traffic stop have to assume that the driver is armed.

Brazil, Argentina, Honduras. Panama. . . . .