Rich Winstock Swoop Incident Cover-Up

[airtwardo 6]

DocPop

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It's not MY JOB to do your homework for you and play news reporter outlining the things I discussed while satisfying my curiosity...

If you're not willing to provide information here because it's not "YOUR JOB" then don't expect everyone here to be all-knowing.

If you want something set straight, then set it straight. If you're not prepared to do that - don't whine about it.

Again...I'm not here to set something straight - why don't YOU get it straight from the horses mouth? ~ Instead of spouting off inconsequential rhetoric that some guy told some other guy about an incident a whole different guy had - and the fictional 'cover up' thrown in for spicy flavor...the whole thing is ludicrous.

You make these 'all knowing' statements and arrive at conclusions - demanding action on something you don't have a clue about...the fact that 'someone' went above & beyond by sending out unsolicited emails, quoting private correspondence that may or may not have taken place - alluding that SOP investigational procedures equate to some shadowy cover up -

- is obvious cause to rally the troops and make some revolutionary charge against 'the man' and this horrible oppression... Take a 'Lude chill out man.

~ Many it seems swallowed the bait - hook, line, sinker & boat...without even once putting it to at the very least a 'smell test'.

All I'm Saying to you is - what you think you know about this situation is wrong, therefore all the self righteous indignation and call to arms that you're making are ridiculous, a bit naive & shortsighted in that you accept unequivocally something said by someone you don't know, taking a firm stand without checking simple facts

If YOU'RE willing to ride some bandwagon driven by 'anonymous' that's headed someplace you know nothing about because following the mob makes better sense to you than thinking for yourself...have at it kid, and good luck - you'll need it.

MY first post to this thread was along the lines of - something doesn't sound right, lets all calm down and check some facts prior to tying the hangman's noose...

...Well I did check some facts, and I'm satisfied that though there certainly seems to be 'something' going on here involving backstabbing & back scratching - the incident that's the catalyst for the controversy in no way rises to the level of sandy panties it seeming has caused.

Why is I wonder that you so willingly accept the 'story' as told by somebody nobody seems to know...that (again) clearly tells it in a manner preconceived to create the most controversy...but are unwilling to believe some others & me, when I say I checked into a few things & what's being cited as fact - isn't.

I've been going around the sun long enough to know ya don't 'argue' with a large flock of sheepeople - you point the direction you arrived at YOUR opinion from & hope a few are curious enough to see for themselves.

Instead of BooHooing on here about delusional inner circles, codes of silence & secret handshakes...send USPA's President an email voicing your concerns and asking your questions.

Even though the email address for the USPA is a
closely guarded item of national security...I bet you're resourceful enough to google.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[Krip 2]

Hi Mr T

We've been around long enough to know that we can't rely on DZ rumors and the net.

It is what it is. Whatever "it" is.

We recently received a email telling us a Boogie had been canceled

We did our due diligence. Found out the boogie hadn't been canceled. Just reconfigured.

R.

One Jump Wonder

[DanG 1]

Quote

...Well I did check some facts, and I'm satisfied that though there certainly seems to be 'something' going on here involving backstabbing & back scratching - the incident that's the catalyst for the controversy in no way rises to the level of sandy panties it seeming has caused.

Can you explain why you can't share those facts with the rest of us?

- Dan G

[Andy9o8 0]

Quote

THAT is not what happened..

Well, then what did?

I really don't understand why that's so hard to answer.

[normiss 619]

I keep hearing a handful of excuses and justifications for swooping the spectator area. That's the part I can't get past.
They declared a swoop comp at the end of the day. Where's the high performance swoop/landing area?????
He didn't hit Tyf. Her diving for cover apparently injured her, no?


There is no excuse.
Continuing to come up with justifications and excuses is simply continuing the good old boy system.

It's all bullshit to me.
But that's normal for USPA.

BOHICA

[Doug_Davis 0]

airtwardo

stuff like 'the long time designated no swoop zone was carelessly disregarded and the jumper crashed in the observation bleachers hitting a spectator causing her to spend a week in the hospital.'

THAT is not what happened..

Then what happened? Because several jumpers from the DZ, friends of the injured, and others have substantiated that this is in fact what happened. In this and the original incident thread.

Otherwise all your doing is adding to the rumors you claim to be fighting against.

Andy9o8

Quote

THAT is not what happened..

Well, then what did?

I really don't understand why that's so hard to answer.

+1

[MakeItHappen 15]

Well, I am on the BOD and I don't know what happened on that jump.
Spot and Twardo keep implying that they have additional information about this accident that they apparently got from other BOD members, but won't share it.
And then go on to admonish others about not contacting members of the BOD or picking up the phone.

I asked Rich what happened.
He said it was all his fault, but when asked for a play-by-play type description of the jump he never replied.
He also never returned my numerous phone calls.
Rich, aka as Para5-0 on DZ.com, has NOT made a post here since the accident.
He was a prolific poster, posting numerous times everyday, pontificating safety and canopy control.
I think that speaks louder than anything.
If it was something that he could not avoid, then one would expect that he would come forward and explain and describe what happened.
But he hasn't done that.

After an improper investigation by the President, that was objected to by numerous BOD members after the President informed us about what she did, a formal 1-6 aka DG investigation was done.
The official investigation was compromised by several factors.
The RD eventually said that the DG found no fault in Rich's actions and no change in his status was recommended.
I repeatedly asked the RD for a play-by-play description of the jump.
I received no answer. Not even a "I'm not gonna tell you."

I've read and heard LOTS of versions about the jump description, but none from Rich or any member of the DG.

What I do know is:
- that picnic tables do not walk around the landing area, even though they have legs.
- a person sitting in the spectator area was hit and put in the hospital for several days.
- there are plenty of outs near the accident site
- a guy that definitely knows what those loopy thingys are, maneuvered his canopy in such a way that it caused great bodily injury to himself and others.

The BOD meeting is in a few weeks and every USPA member deserves to hear about the details of this accident.
Members should write or call BOD members and HQ to make sure this information is forthcoming by the next meeting.
Bitching about it here won't do anything.

.

.
Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker

[jimjumper 25]

Thank you, Jan! Without making comment on any of the information you provided, at least you came on here and stated what you have been told and provided some specifics.

[rwieder 0]

Quote

The BOD meeting is in a few weeks and every USPA member deserves to hear about the details of this accident.
Members should write or call BOD members and HQ to make sure this information is forthcoming by the next meeting.
Bitching about it here won't do anything.

Well said. Here!! Here!! Thanks Jan.

Best-
Richard

[DocPop 1]

DanG

Quote

...Well I did check some facts, and I'm satisfied that though there certainly seems to be 'something' going on here involving backstabbing & back scratching - the incident that's the catalyst for the controversy in no way rises to the level of sandy panties it seeming has caused.

Can you explain why you can't share those facts with the rest of us?

Thank you.

"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

[DocPop 1]

Andy9o8

Quote

THAT is not what happened..

Well, then what did?

I really don't understand why that's so hard to answer.

Thank you.

"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

[DocPop 1]

Doug_Davis

***stuff like 'the long time designated no swoop zone was carelessly disregarded and the jumper crashed in the observation bleachers hitting a spectator causing her to spend a week in the hospital.'

THAT is not what happened..

Then what happened? Because several jumpers from the DZ, friends of the injured, and others have substantiated that this is in fact what happened. In this and the original incident thread.

Otherwise all your doing is adding to the rumors you claim to be fighting against.


Thank you.

"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

[DocPop 1]

MakeItHappen

Well, I am on the BOD and I don't know what happened on that jump.
Spot and Twardo keep implying that they have additional information about this accident that they apparently got from other BOD members, but won't share it.
And then go on to admonish others about not contacting members of the BOD or picking up the phone.

Thank you, too.

This was what I was trying, but failing to get across.

Maybe only the "cool kids" are allowed to know?

"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

[Krip 2]

Andy9o8

Quote

THAT is not what happened..

Well, then what did?

I reially don't understand why that's so hard to answer.

Have you tried writing to the president of USPA to find out the facts about what happened?

Thats what twardo suggested in his post.

If you want to know what happened contact USPA instead of whining

One Jump Wonder

[airtwardo 6]

Quote

Spot and Twardo keep implying that they have additional information about this accident that they apparently got from other BOD members, but won't share it.
And then go on to admonish others about not contacting members of the BOD or picking up the phone.

I can't speak for Spot...but yes out of curiosity I did follow up as I'd suggested others do.

I have no idea why what was told to me wasn't available to you too Jan, unless for some reason a 'no comment' policy went into effect. You would know more about that stuff than I would, not being the political type.

I WAS asked not to editorialize here regarding the conversations I had, as it's my understanding either the investigation(s) were not complete - or another one was in the works...again, you probably know more than I do on that stuff.

I said I wouldn't - so I won't. ~ as anyone who knows me personally will attest...my word is solid.

Besides - as I said in the thread earlier, why would someone take MY 'shared' account as factual?

I sure didn't just blindly believe what was in the unsolicited email I received, as was also received by the OP of this thread...or take as solid fact what some posters here have quoted as truth - only to find out THEY were just repeating 'reliable source' rumor - that wasn't....2nd & 3rd person accounts are next to worthless, each tier injects their own opinion consciously or not.

I didn't 'share' because not only did I say I wouldn't - but it would be practically pointless to do so anyway.

I apologize if that has or is causing some frustration, but it is what it is.

That's why the best I feel I could do is suggest others get first person accounts and judge for themselves.

IMO ~ it was an incident, could have been avoided but then again most can.

What I find most troubling about the whole thing is the mass of inflammatory emails 'someone' felt necessary to send...and that allegedly private correspondence was made public - if that's true ~~

The derogatory nature of pointing fingers and calling names to include the 'cover up' label seems unfair & premature.

Will the whole thing negatively affect Rich Winstock politically?
Probably.

The thing is...I really don't know if it should - or not.

What happened is no doubt 'bad'...but not as bad as originally described.

Negative statements were made & opinions formed...human nature will tend to make one stick with their 1st impression - we put that 1st impression slant on whatever later comes out so unfortunately that never gets a fair read in cases like this.

How objective can you be for example Jan, when you say both that you haven't gotten a first person play by play . . .your queries for information are not satisfied - But you know that - "a person sitting in the spectator area was hit and put in the hospital for several days."

When I think you know - a more accurate description might say 'a spectator was injured though not from being hit, and spent several days in the hospital because of both that injury & other undisclosed medical concerns'

We hear what we want to hear sometimes...just sayin'



The guy screwed up, he's not the first. I'm sure you & I both could tick off a laundry list of elected members that have made errors, as bad or worse over the years.

However SOMETHING weird is going on with all the character assassination & backstabbing out of left field...never seen that before. - troubling.

I don't know Rich personally...pretty much just from on here. What I DO know of him is that the positive things he's done for the sport seem to outweigh the negatives of this incident. ~ But that's MY opinion YMMV.

I don't know what he did to piss someone off enough to send this down the path it went...but let it be a lesson to everyone - don't EVER fuck up, sometimes ya don't even get one strike!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[Arvoitus 1]

How do you know that the people you talked to didn't flat out lie to you, knowing that what ever they told you, you wouldn't pass forward?

Your rights end where my feelings begin.

[airtwardo 6]

Arvoitus

How do you know that the people you talked to didn't flat out lie to you, knowing that what ever they told you, you wouldn't pass forward?

Same way I guess some people seem to believe that there is some shadowy cover up going...ya believe what ya wanna believe.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[skymama 35]

Quote

The BOD meeting is in a few weeks and every USPA member deserves to hear about the details of this accident.
Members should write or call BOD members and HQ to make sure this information is forthcoming by the next meeting.
Bitching about it here won't do anything.

Thanks for your post, Jan. I've never written to a BOD member before, and don't really know the right approach to take. As a BOD member yourself, what type of e-mail from a member encourages you to take their concerns seriously and not blow them off as another whiny skydiver who posts on dz.com too much?

She is Da Man, and you better not mess with Da Man,
because she will lay some keepdown on you faster than, well, really fast. ~Billvon

[peek 20]

skymama

Thanks for your post, Jan. I've never written to a BOD member before, and don't really know the right approach to take. As a BOD member yourself, what type of e-mail from a member encourages you to take their concerns seriously and not blow them off as another whiny skydiver who posts on dz.com too much?

I am in a later time zone than her, so I'm going to get the "jump" on responding first.

A personal communication of any type to a BOD member is more than enough.

Unfortunately, many current and former members of the USPA BOD do not respect dropzone.com (or even the internet in general) and therefore disregard most messages posted in forums, no matter how sincere or true they are.

Also, someone on the BOD or at headquarters at one point in time, caused the email address [email protected] (which was forwarded to all BOD members) to be disabled because they did not want to make it that easy for members to send emails to the BOD. I think it is now working again for the members.

[stayhigh 2]

No fault in Rich's action....

that's awesome, however that same person(Rich Winstock) will take away someone else's rating for doing same thing.

Bernie Sanders for President 2016

[airtwardo 6]

stayhigh

No fault in Rich's action....

that's awesome, however that same person(Rich Winstock) will take away someone else's rating for doing same thing.

Has that happened?

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[Andy9o8 0]

Krip

***

Quote

THAT is not what happened..

Well, then what did?

I reially don't understand why that's so hard to answer.

Have you tried writing to the president of USPA to find out the facts about what happened?

Thats what twardo suggested in his post.

If you want to know what happened contact USPA instead of whining


I'm not "whining", I'm making a simple, direct inquiry in completely respectful, non-judgmental language. To be blunt, I really don't appreciate the suggestion that I am "whining"; and I'm equally offended by various people's direct and implied vilification of those others who have also made the simple, direct inquiry, seemingly as a way of imposing a "chilling effect" on people making such inquiries. Those who know my posting history know that I never bring that shit into the Skydiving sub-forums; I treat them seriously and with respect. This isn't Speaker's Corner, and there's no place for that brand of chickenshit here, Krip, so just stow it.

Like it or not, scrutiny of this incident has gone community-wide. The silly suggestion that each and every one of the... what, hundreds? at least? ... of us who are interested in this incident needs to have a direct communication with a BOD member in order to get a straight answer to a direct question - nothing more, nothing less - is just bullshit.

There's no need for each of us to have to go hat-in-hand. The community at large has already, via multiple private and public means, made it more than sufficiently clear to "Those In The Know" that we - collectively! - want a direct answer to the simple question: What happened? It's long past time for them to just step out into the open and tell us already!

[MakeItHappen 15]

skymama

Thanks for your post, Jan. I've never written to a BOD member before, and don't really know the right approach to take. As a BOD member yourself, what type of e-mail from a member encourages you to take their concerns seriously and not blow them off as another whiny skydiver who posts on dz.com too much?

Does that mean you are about to write your FIRST email to a BOD member?

I always take members' inquires seriously. Not every BOD member does, but there are fewer of those types on the BOD now than before.

It's best to write a BOD member that you know.
Depending on the topic, writing to all at once via [email protected] works.
Usually, very controversial issues will see a bunch of member emails to the FB just before the BOD meeting (sent on the travel day, Thursday).
It'd be better if those emails were sent the Monday before the meeting as checking email Thursday night or Friday morning sometimes has internet access issues at the hotel.

The text and tone of the email should be respectful. Most of them are written professionally.

At the upcoming meeting in Memphis, there is also a General Membership Meeting on Friday night.
This would be a good time to have the local jumpers attend the meeting and ask questions directly of the BOD members.
If you can't attend, find someone that you know that can ask your question for you in person.
The meetings are open to the public and you can video them.

I will encourage members to write the BOD, as a whole or individually.
You can write about any topic germane to USPA business.

.

.
Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker

[skymama 35]

Thanks, Jan! And, yes, it'd be my FIRST email but I don't see that in the beer rules anywhere!

She is Da Man, and you better not mess with Da Man,
because she will lay some keepdown on you faster than, well, really fast. ~Billvon

[MakeItHappen 15]

airtwardo

I have no idea why what was told to me wasn't available to you too Jan, unless for some reason a 'no comment' policy went into effect. You would know more about that stuff than I would, not being the political type.

I WAS asked not to editorialize here regarding the conversations I had, as it's my understanding either the investigation(s) were not complete - or another one was in the works...again, you probably know more than I do on that stuff.

Doesn't that strike you as rather odd?

airtwardo

What I find most troubling about the whole thing is the mass of inflammatory emails 'someone' felt necessary to send...and that allegedly private correspondence was made public - if that's true ~~

I'll assume you are talking about this email, posted by Martin.

That email does have an amazing resemblance to an email sent by the Prez via the Member-at-large.
The email written by the Prez, appeared to be 'this is the story, end of story' type missive.
There was no confidentiality warnings attached to the email.
It was sent at the beginning of a weekend.
There was one particular point in it that I thought was 'fishy'. I had to wait until the following Monday to find out the scoop on it.
During that time, a rather large number of emails were generated amongst the BOD about the contents of the email.
Then there was an OMG missive from the Prez that said - 'all this discussion is confidential.' - even though the original missive really came across as the 'answer' to give to members about the incident. If a BOD member did pass that email on, it really should not have created any heartburn. (as to disclosure. It would create heartburn in relation to disciplinary actions.)

After significant protests by a large number of BOD members, a 2nd investigation by the DG was set in motion. As I said before, this investigation was compromised on several levels.

airtwardo

How objective can you be for example Jan, when you say both that you haven't gotten a first person play by play . . .your queries for information are not satisfied - But you know that - "a person sitting in the spectator area was hit and put in the hospital for several days."

When I think you know - a more accurate description might say 'a spectator was injured though not from being hit, and spent several days in the hospital because of both that injury & other undisclosed medical concerns'

Oh gee whiz.... now you have access to information protected by HIPPA laws?
It's kinda like you are saying "good thing you got hit by that truck and sent to the hospital, otherwise we'd never know that you had XYZ disease."

airtwardo

However SOMETHING weird is going on with all the character assassination & backstabbing out of left field...never seen that before. - troubling.

People don't want to see him get a 'free pass'. He screwed up.
Other members have been kicked out of USPA for very similar incidents.

.

.
Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker