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skydived19006

Rich Winstock Swoop Incident Cover-Up

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DSE


I don't support the GOB, no. What I do support is making phone calls to learn answers for myself. I received an anonymous email which was vitriolic and dishonest about a couple of topics of which I had direct knowledge.

Then I learned that the email was sent by a board member, and it didn't take long to connect a few dots. Contrary to popular belief, members of the board are not all buddy-buddy.

So, I made some phone calls and found myself reasonably satisfied with the process as explained to me.

Did Winstock make a bad mistake? Obviously. Is it the mistake illustrated here on DZ.com? Based on several accounts from investigators and people that were actually there... Likely not. I'm satisfied with what I've been told. More than that, I'm not going to second-guess what three different investigations turned up.

I do think it's a shame that the situation isn't being made more public but then again, USPA has never before let the world know about their Article 1-6 investigations and if every other tom/dick/harry is entitled to private proceedings, so should Winstock (as have other BOD members and skydivers been protected by the same policy in past investigations).

Beyond that, upcoming elections will determine the final disposition of the situation.



DSE, I am sorry if you feel I am attacking you, That was not my intention. Like I stated in my previous post I have come to respect your knowledge and insight in these forums.

I guess what I am trying to figure out, is what you are implying in the above quotes. You seem to have come into some information that has affected your view on this incident, while the rest of us are left wondering what actually occurred.

As far as I know, you are not bound by the privacy clause that the rest of the BOD and RD's are. If there is nothing to hide, why not just speak the truth in its entirety?

Don't Pull Low... Unless You ARE!!!
The pessimist says, "It can't get any worse than this." The optimist says, "Sure, it can."
Be fun, have safe.

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rwieder

My oh my, oh my. I think DSE has shared all that he possibly can. One doesn't want to burn bridges. "IF" I knew all that he does, I'd be mum as well. Cut the man some slack. It's all gonna come out in the wash! :)



I respectfully disagree. Seems this is trying to be swept under the rug. There are quite few incidents in these forums where people have said the same thing "wait and all will be revealed", usually ends up forgotten about.

Case in point:
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3672911;#3672911

Seems we are doomed to repeat our mistakes.

edited to make clicky

Don't Pull Low... Unless You ARE!!!
The pessimist says, "It can't get any worse than this." The optimist says, "Sure, it can."
Be fun, have safe.

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It's all gonna' come out in the wash! :)



I'm quoting myself, and I HATE saying things twice. Be cool bro. Right now, it's on a "need to know" basis, and I reckon right now you just don't need to know. Respectfully.

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I respectfully disagree. Seems this is trying to be swept under the rug. There are quite few incidents in these forums where people have said the same thing "wait and all will be revealed", usually ends up forgotten about.



I respectfully disagree with you on that point. Winstock is a sky diver, not POTUS. We'll all know everything, soon enough, trust me.

Best-
Richard

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jimjumper

For those that have been calling for various punitive measures, I think that in the end very little is going to happen. With the number of DZO’s on the Board it is unlikely that they will do anything to one of their own. As a DZO he also could just drop his DZ Group Membership and then all the rules about USPA ratings and appointments are moot and it’s back to business as usual. I suppose USPA might need to appoint a new S&TA for the DZ but those are easy to replace. As an elected Director he was voted in by the membership and even if he doesn’t follow the rules at his own DZ his elected job is to represent those that voted for him so I doubt that there will be serious repercussions from that area either. I expect that he will offer an apology either to the USPA Board or via “Parachutist” and that will be the official end of it. This may sound cynical but I think ultimately any effort towards contrition will be of his own volition in an attempt to repair his reputation and not from any official concern by USPA.



I posted this over in the "Incidents" section when this all came up. I think the apology "I.E. Safety Article" will be published just before the next Board meeting, anything disciplinary will be handled in closed session and won't be discussed, and then it's back to business as usual! After 30 years of seeing stuff like this you tend to get a little cynical when it comes to USPA.

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chuckakers

***Chuck, I'm referring to SDSL the area that used to be roped off (Might still be?) towards the landing area, where all of the "Lookie Lous" used to stand and watch their friends, relatives, or what ever land when they came in for landing. You're there all of the time, you know the area I speak of.



Yes, that area now has a nice spectator fence and an easily visible line of deadened grass about 20 feet further into the landing area as the beer line. That beer line extends the entire length of the fence and around the corners of the hangar, and extends vertically to a height equal to the roof of the hangar (25 feet or so) creating a no-fly zone. This keeps jumpers from passing over the spectator area at a low altitude and landing "barely legal" and keeps jumpers from cutting across the corners as well.

It's enforced too. Skydive Spaceland is super busy these days with 2 turbines running most weekends, so we have a DZ Safety Officer monitoring operations.


'Cept nobody told ME about the dead grass thing until....nevermind! ;)










~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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This is like the third time that you've mentioned that you did additional research into the matter and have additional information, but have yet to provide much of anything except that "an investigation has been started", which is great. That's what I got from the USPA too, along with "wait for the board of directors meeting" when I asked. So I am waiting, but I still contend action should have come sooner.

Please don't group everyone that thinks this guy should step down and is appalled that he's still in a position of leadership with "sheeple" and look down on us all. Some of us had friends on that load. Thanks.

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Ssssh. We're not supposed to know ANYTHING or discuss ANYTHING. It's NOT a cover-up - never mind all the secret talks and handshakes and NDA's. It's NOT a cover-up. Call everybody and talk to them. Then say nothing.


Right now, it's on a "need to know" basis, and I reckon right now you just don't need to know. Respectfully. :o

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You mean, "If I knew all that he implies he knows, but won't say outright..."


No, what I said was "IF" I knew what he does, I'd be mum as well.
The man voluntarily came here and advised ALL that he could without burning bridges. WHY the attack on DSE? I don't get it. You people need to chill out. IF I were DSE, I'd lock this thread down NOW. Man, I can't believe these mods do what they do for free. Are any of you in an industry where there are "Trade Secrets?" If so, then you should know if you divulge that type of information, you cannot (Well you could I reckon) divulge that type of info. If you did, you'd be banned from such industry for life. In my realm, I deal with seismic data, perspective future drill sites and drilling methods way before we intend to improvise these plans. So I guess that makes me an Industry Spy? OR am I just keeping to the "Industry Standards?" You decide. Please, no more personal attacks here, I'm asking nicely. :)

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I owe you more than that I suppose.

A LOT of people have been given full details, some sworn to secrecy. Some didn't respect that and spread it around.
I think we all have a right to the details of incidents in our sport.
When the top dog of safety fucks up and then the blanket of hush is put over it, it's wrong.
We deserve the truth.
Our sport IS about life and death.
I don't find playing with that to be a right to know issue.

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A LOT of people have been given full details, some sworn to secrecy. Some didn't respect that and spread it around.
I think we all have a right to the details of incidents in our sport.
When the top dog of safety fucks up and then the blanket of hush is put over it, it's wrong. We deserve the truth.
Our sport IS about life and death. I don't find playing with that to be a right to know issue.



Ya know Mark, I can't disagree w/ you here. How ever, it is what it is, and you know that as well as I do.

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"Ya know Mark, I can't disagree w/ you here. How ever, it is what it is, and you know that as well as I do."

That only applies if good people sit back and shut up and let it continue to happen. Or, they can speak up and let themselves be heard. Some say he should step down from the Board. Others say he should step down from head of safety. I would lean towards the latter. There has to be consequences for your actions, especially if you are the head of Safety and the fact of other incidents with him. Being a member of the board does not exempt you from this.

As for DSE's comments, if i read correctly, wasn't it DSE and Rich trying to over regulate Wingsuit jumpers? That might explain some of DSE's comments. Or not.

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rwieder

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Sorry but some of my friends that are now dead were REALLY good too.....



Sorry about your friends that were really good. How ever, this friend of mine is alive and well as you and I some 15 years later. Well, I guess that make him REALLY GOOD!



Think you missed my point.
I believe it was mjosparky that said something along the lines of no ones good enough that you can't die in this sport.

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no ones good enough that you can't die in this sport.



+1

You can't be in this sport more than a couple of years without seeing someone who is much safer and better than you get seriously injured or die.
For the same reason I jump off a perfectly good diving board.

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rwieder

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Ssssh. We're not supposed to know ANYTHING or discuss ANYTHING. It's NOT a cover-up - never mind all the secret talks and handshakes and NDA's. It's NOT a cover-up. Call everybody and talk to them. Then say nothing.


Right now, it's on a "need to know" basis, and I reckon right now you just don't need to know. Respectfully. :o



I think USPA dues-paying members need to know what went on when their safety director injured a spectator in a "no-fly" zone. This isn't an issue of national security.
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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ScottCruz



As for DSE's comments, if i read correctly, wasn't it DSE and Rich trying to over regulate Wingsuit jumpers? That might explain some of DSE's comments. Or not.



Yes, it was.
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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kallend

***

Quote

Ssssh. We're not supposed to know ANYTHING or discuss ANYTHING. It's NOT a cover-up - never mind all the secret talks and handshakes and NDA's. It's NOT a cover-up. Call everybody and talk to them. Then say nothing.


Right now, it's on a "need to know" basis, and I reckon right now you just don't need to know. Respectfully. :o



I think USPA dues-paying members need to know what went on when their safety director injured a spectator in a "no-fly" zone. This isn't an issue of national security.


Yeah...and dues paying members should have access to ALL the investigations ever conducted whether made public by publishing a private email or not!

WE the 'dues paying members' should have open and complete access to EVERYTHING that's goes on 'up there' - - we NEED to know... the salaries we are paying those in charge of the non profit, as well as the qualifications of those in management positions as well as their subordinates...they should have full disclosure of what all goes on in the infamous closed-door sessions that at times even 'other' board members aren't allowed to attend.

ALL the dirty laundry of EVERY board member, officer, rating holder - you name it, should be front & center as well...maybe an extra couple of pages on the USPA website with names - photos - and descriptions of the infractions, incidents & near misses they've been associated with...you know, the 'good stuff' like when rules are bent - mahogany row d00ds jumping demos drunk... OR..bad common sense stuff like dropping heavy things from altitude and causing damage. - the list is actually pretty long and interesting!

...the 'dues paying members' could click a 'like' or 'dislike' icon ~ so people like ME would know exactly how outraged I should be, and at whom - and maybe I'd then have a better shot of eating lunch with the cool kids. :ph34r:

The dues paying members in good standing should have access to the books in regard to what all is spent where & why, a monthly spreadsheet divided into received & payables sounds like a fair accounting.

Perhaps the very charter itself needs to be revised to better reflect the contemporary needs and more realistic goals the organization needs to focus on...

None of THAT stuff nears the realm of national security either, and in fact is probably a positive path that just might make the whole association work a little better in that once the veil of secrecy is lifted - the average joe the ragman skydiver feels more in touch and actually gets interested in the overall direction.

...but it ain't gonna happen ~

- all the folks that have never made a mistake, would much rather bitch about the latest flavor of the month diversion twisting their painties up, speaking with authority whether they are truly aware of the facts or not...'cause if ya claim to be 'holier than thou' loud enough & long enough - somebody may believe it! B|:o

IMO ~ in the overall scheme of things...this really doesn't rate all that high.

~what this guy did shouldn't have happened. That said, the actual circumstances related to the event have yet to be discussed.

Just 'blue skying' here...but theoretically - would it make a difference if the 'no fly zone' as you call it, had changed for that particular jump?
How about you clarify your meaning of the term "Injured"...what if say, no actual physical contact was made between the jumper and the employee - I mean 'spectator'. Would that have any bearing on your opinion of the event?

There is plenty of speculation, there have been absolute lies told about it by people who've never met the guy nor jumped at that dropzone.

There HAVE BEEN two possibly three investigations regarding the incident, in which all the available facts were reviewed & the members we elected to oversee the association, seem satisfied this was an unfortunate anomaly and not some despicable pattern of endangering the public and doing irreparable damage to the sport as a whole.

SO...as I see it, we can either stomp our feet & throw a judgemental tantrum about an event we don't have factual insight to.

Or...we can trust the system as it stands, because just maybe it's working as designed. And since nobody really wants to address any weakness in it with positive/productive input - it's all we have.

Like has been said - it's easy to be a critic - but the honor goes to those IN the arena...win, lose or draw - it's THEY who are actually doing something. :D

And the bottom line is ~ the 'something' they do that actually matters...is keeping the Feds at bay ~ period.

All else it smoke & mirrors...and of no consequence at all should that single primary item of priority - Fail.










~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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This is getting ridiculous.

A BOD member injures a spectator doing something stupid; the USPA should come out with a statement within a couple of days, and then a further one after investigation.

This "code of silence" is causing much more damage than would the above actions.

Also, for those people posting "I know stuff that you don't but won't tell you" - just grow up. If you can't/won't share it then just keep quiet about it.

If you have to feel good about yourself by implying that you are in the inner circle then that's a pretty pathetic situation. If you know something that can be shared then for fuck's sake share it and stop criticizing those who don't have that information.

The apparent secrecy around this whole incident is making it much, much worse than it already was.
"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

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DocPop

This is getting ridiculous.

A BOD member injures a spectator doing something stupid; the USPA should come out with a statement within a couple of days, and then a further one after investigation.

This "code of silence" is causing much more damage than would the above actions.

Also, for those people posting "I know stuff that you don't but won't tell you" - just grow up. If you can't/won't share it then just keep quiet about it.

If you have to feel good about yourself by implying that you are in the inner circle then that's a pretty pathetic situation. If you know something that can be shared then for fuck's sake share it and stop criticizing those who don't have that information.

The apparent secrecy around this whole incident is making it much, much worse than it already was.



Oh it passed ridiculous a long while back. :S



The 'pathetic situation' as you call it, is the continual urge some people seem to have for talking out their ass about something they have no actual information about.

This thread was started by someone referring to an email they received regarding an incident that took place.

Umm...RED FLAG! :o

I've been a USPA member for coming on 40 years, NEVER have I been contacted by anyone making statements about an incident and comments referring to private correspondence they weren't even a party to.

The email was essentially the same one I too received...from someone I never heard of, stating 'facts' not in evidence & drawing conclusions clearly designed to elicit an inflamed response.

Sorry...I don't just buy into that shit - maybe it's YOU that needs to 'grow up' a little?

There isn't a 'code of silence' going on, or some magical 'inner circle'...why don't you do as has been suggested several times in this thread - make some calls, talk to some people that are involved with the situation first hand, maybe learn a little about the protocol regarding the investigation process and the parameters for deciding 'if & what' determines if any disciplinary action is required...and THEN form an opinion that actually means something.

These people are very accessible and I've found quite willing to discuss matters with those who are truly interested in the facts - that don't bring into the conversation preconceived notions stemming from questionable motives by people unknown, with possible grudges or political agendas.

The paranoid spoiled brat ranting about being criticized for not having information is precisely what's so ridiculous...you draw conclusions and make demands based on innuendo and rumor, while making no effort whatsoever to get a clear picture of the incident...other than sitting at your keyboard kingdom whining about inner circles.

It's not MY JOB to do your homework for you and play news reporter outlining the things I discussed while satisfying my curiosity...

You don't know me any better than you do the guy who sent those emails out enmass looking to create this controversy. I wouldn't expect you to believe MY take on things any more or less than you did 'his'...why would I want to appear to 'defend' or 'condemn' someone anyway?

I don't care to address some of the outlandish bullshit that has been 'quoted' as fact in this matter, since there seems to be an endless supply of it...stuff like 'the long time designated no swoop zone was carelessly disregarded and the jumper crashed in the observation bleachers hitting a spectator causing her to spend a week in the hospital.'

THAT is not what happened..yet that and several other unsubstantiated versions have been circulated ad nauseum both intentionally & not...resulting in confusion and misplaced controversy.

Hate to break it to ya - but there have in the past been several investigations instituted regarding the actions and conduct of both office holders and 'dues paying members' of our organization...the results vary from no action required to censure and expulsion.

You're not gonna find two page editorials in the monthly magazine giving the what, when & why's of those things either...because that's not how business is handled. - If you don't like it, or somehow feel 'entitled' to have some say in the process and determinations...tough shit, life is full of little disappointments - wear a helmet.










~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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airtwardo



It's not MY JOB to do your homework for you and play news reporter outlining the things I discussed while satisfying my curiosity...



If you're not willing to provide information here because it's not "YOUR JOB" then don't expect everyone here to be all-knowing.

If you want something set straight, then set it straight. If you're not prepared to do that - don't whine about it.
"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

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