0
skydived19006

Rich Winstock Swoop Incident Cover-Up

Recommended Posts

DSE

******
I'm still awaiting Doug_Davis' explanation of how he's experienced Rich's previous behaviors. My money says he got the same anonymous email from a USPA BOD member that several other people received.
Doug?
(This post was edited by DSE on May 22, 2014, 10:15 AM)



You got the explanation in a PM, which you responded to via PM at 9:40am this morning before editing this post at 10:15am calling me out. :S

So you had already received the explanation and responded to it, before adding that edit.

Nope, you shared with me that "A BOD member shared information with you."
Your post indicates that you have first-hand knowledge.
I suggest you have hearsay.
They aren't the same thing. If you submit that one BOD member is criminal in his actions, then you have to accept that there are other BOD members that might lie, cheat, make up things that aren't true, or bend the truth to fit a mold.

in other words, you don't know anything about the topic you're suggesting you know something about.
Did you talk to the President of USPA? Did you personally speak with anyone involved with the investigations? Did you call the BOD member in question?
Or that you'd just accept one email from a disgruntled BOD member because it fits your facts?
No wonder you never made detective in the NYPD.;)

Or you could go back and read the original thread in the incident forums where former customers witnessed and discussed the safety problems at the DZ, or where pics from their facebook page were posted that discussed "swooping the buildings", or any number of things.

Or you can continue trying to argue with me in every thread I have posted in recently, while posting snide passive aggressive insults and making yourself look like a psycho stalker.

Your choice, but either way Im tired of your juvenile trolling attempts and will just ignore you from here on out. Maybe you could try the same.

Blue skies! B|

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Or you could go back and read the original thread in the incident forums where former customers witnessed and discussed the safety problems at the DZ, or where pics from their facebook page were posted that discussed "swooping the buildings", or any number of things.



So for my own clarification please tell us if any of these things are untrue;

-you've never jumped at Sussex
-you've never been to the dropzone at Sussex
-you've never met any of the jumpers from Sussex
-you've never spoken to the victim or her partner
-you've never spoken with the hospital, or understand the underlying reasons for the hospital stay
-you've never spoken to Mr. Winstock (a former cop, probably easy to talk to)
-you've never spoken to Ms Butcher (someone who I've always found easy to reach via FB, email, phone call)
-you've never spoken to USPA's Executive Director or legal counselor
-you've never spoken to anyone involved with the Article 1-6 investigations
-you're not specifically aware of what was occurring at the time of the incident, what may or may not have changed in the landing area, or what specific activity was happening at the DZ at the time of the incident
-you have no direct first-hand knowledge of this incident at all, but rather base all your "burn this motherfucker, kick him off the board, kill his rep" judgements based on Facebook posts, a private email from a disgruntled BOD member, and one post from a jumper that doesn't care for the person involved.

That's somewhat disturbing.

Please don't take this as a defense of Mr. Winstock, that's for him and USPA to deal with. Rather, it's a reaction seeing a new skydiver having developed such a strong, vociferous, vicious response to a situation he actually knows nothing about.

Conclusions without _all_facts can do significant damage and I pray for your own benefit that should you ever have the courage and skill to become an instructor, DZO, S&TA, rigger, or any other safety-related person in skydiving, that you never once make any kind of a questionable move.

If you do, can you cope being eviscerated by a skydiver with almost no experience nor knowledge of what it is you *may or may not* have done or intended in your errors or actions?

Believe me, I get it. I've been the same as you when I first got into the sport and witnessed a fatality in my first month in the sport. Eventually, after having my ass handed to me by Skymama, Tonto, and a few others, things changed and I realized not everything is always as it appears to be.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Rather than fight about he said she said, let's look at the facts in play here.

Rich swooped a demarcated spectator area and caused significant injuries to another person.

If you look up in the USPA Governance Manual, Section 1-6: Disciplinary Actions, under 1-6.4 B "Any USPA member shall be guilty of an offense justifying the imposition of the penalties set forth in the USPA Governance Manual Section 1-6.4.C (below) who-

.....
3. While engaging in any phase of skydiving, is so grossly negligent in his conduct or acts as to imminently imperil his fellow skydivers or aircraft or persons or property on the ground, or wantonly disregards the safety of himself or other persons

4. Engages in any conduct as a skydiver which a person of reasonable prudence would anticipate as being likely to bring public contempt upon himself or herself, or upon skydivers, or upon USPA
.....

So, if this was Joe Jumper, would a RD start a 1-6 action and would that be appropriate? Does being on the BOD/Chair of S&T make the jumper more or less answerable for their actions? Would an S&TA lose their rating for doing this?

top
Jump more, post less!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
To me, this is a question of personal integrity. The fact that many on the board hold others to a standard they are not willing to impose on themselves or their friends seems assumed by most to be a given.....
My point
1. If Rich has any integrity at all, he would have or will resign all positions on the board.
2. If the board members have any personal integrity, if Rich won't do the right thing, they WILL remove him as chairman and member of the Safety committee and then at least temporarily suspend his membership.
I still hold out hope for the right thing to happen.
This is the paradox of skydiving. We do something very dangerous, expose ourselves to a totally unnecesary risk, and then spend our time trying to make it safer.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Would an S&TA lose their rating for doing this?



An S&TA dropped an improperly-rigged flag weight through the roof of a house less than a year ago, nearly hitting (read=killing) an infant.

No change in rating.

An S&TA struck and injured an NBC cameraman with an 18' flag on a stadium demo.

An S&TA swooped National Guard soldiers on a stadium demo, injuring himself and minor injury to the National Guardsman.

No change in rating.

Non-S&TA (organizer) warned about a likely incident on a bigway. True to warning, a fatality occurred.
Non-S&TA (instructor) warned about a likely incident on a low-time jumper.
True to warning, a fatality occurred.

Non-S&TA (Organizer) was found to have Photoshopped a State Record. USPA had already ratified the record, issued certificates. 9 months later the record was quietly rescinded with no commentary as to why the rescission occurred.

All of the above qualify for Article 1-6. All occurred in the last 18 months.
In the above situations (AFAIK) no Article 1-6 was initiated. In the case of Winstock, at least two (I've heard rumor of a third) have been initiated.

To specifically answer your question, it already appears that this instance has gone well beyond what Joe Jumper would face.

While you were on the board, there were *many* others just as, if not more egregious, but no Article 1-6 was opened. I specifically requested two Article 1-6's to be enacted; both were denied during that period. Both involved fatalities. Even in the face of dead bodies "joe jumper" didn't get investigated, let alone a slap on the hand.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
DSE

Blah blah blah



You have no idea who I have or havent spoken with. But watching your brain explode every time I post is amusing. :D

Since you havent responded in the same way to anyone else who has posted the same opinions as myself, it pretty apparent this is some personal dislike of me. Thats fine, keeps me amused. :P

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
DSE

Quote

Would an S&TA lose their rating for doing this?



An S&TA dropped an improperly-rigged flag weight through the roof of a house less than a year ago, nearly hitting (read=killing) an infant.

No change in rating.

An S&TA struck and injured an NBC cameraman with an 18' flag on a stadium demo.

An S&TA swooped National Guard soldiers on a stadium demo, injuring himself and minor injury to the National Guardsman.

No change in rating.

Non-S&TA (organizer) warned about a likely incident on a bigway. True to warning, a fatality occurred.
Non-S&TA (instructor) warned about a likely incident on a low-time jumper.
True to warning, a fatality occurred.

Non-S&TA (Organizer) was found to have Photoshopped a State Record. USPA had already ratified the record, issued certificates. 9 months later the record was quietly rescinded with no commentary as to why the rescission occurred.

All of the above qualify for Article 1-6. All occurred in the last 18 months.
In the above situations (AFAIK) no Article 1-6 was initiated. In the case of Winstock, at least two (I've heard rumor of a third) have been initiated.

To specifically answer your question, it already appears that this instance has gone well beyond what Joe Jumper would face.

While you were on the board, there were *many* others just as, if not more egregious, but no Article 1-6 was opened. I specifically requested two Article 1-6's to be enacted; both were denied during that period. Both involved fatalities. Even in the face of dead bodies "joe jumper" didn't get investigated, let alone a slap on the hand.



Okay. I guess this is just business as usual.... Never mind.

Sorry Rich, I thought you were getting away with something, but apparently this is just how its done.

top
Jump more, post less!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Nobody is trolling you. It's an attempt to herd the cats towards facts not speculation. Much of this thread has been speculation.





Doug_Davis

*********
I'm still awaiting Doug_Davis' explanation of how he's experienced Rich's previous behaviors. My money says he got the same anonymous email from a USPA BOD member that several other people received.
Doug?
(This post was edited by DSE on May 22, 2014, 10:15 AM)



You got the explanation in a PM, which you responded to via PM at 9:40am this morning before editing this post at 10:15am calling me out. :S

So you had already received the explanation and responded to it, before adding that edit.

Nope, you shared with me that "A BOD member shared information with you."
Your post indicates that you have first-hand knowledge.
I suggest you have hearsay.
They aren't the same thing. If you submit that one BOD member is criminal in his actions, then you have to accept that there are other BOD members that might lie, cheat, make up things that aren't true, or bend the truth to fit a mold.

in other words, you don't know anything about the topic you're suggesting you know something about.
Did you talk to the President of USPA? Did you personally speak with anyone involved with the investigations? Did you call the BOD member in question?
Or that you'd just accept one email from a disgruntled BOD member because it fits your facts?
No wonder you never made detective in the NYPD.;)

Or you could go back and read the original thread in the incident forums where former customers witnessed and discussed the safety problems at the DZ, or where pics from their facebook page were posted that discussed "swooping the buildings", or any number of things.

Or you can continue trying to argue with me in every thread I have posted in recently, while posting snide passive aggressive insults and making yourself look like a psycho stalker.

Your choice, but either way Im tired of your juvenile trolling attempts and will just ignore you from here on out. Maybe you could try the same.

Blue skies! B|

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I don't know about anyone else, but I'm not going for blood. It's up to the girl or her family to file any criminal charges.

I just want him to give up his position of leadership... too much to ask? This whole situation is a ticking time bomb. If the press get wind of it it might turn into a real shit show...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Why do you think post #74 was removed? (Screen shot attached.)

If it was determined that the things repeated/paraphrased about the USPA President were rude, then you would think that post #65 would have been removed also.

Mr. "allseeingeye", have you had second thoughts about what you repeated/paraphrased? You should. The USPA President would be disappointed with you. Too late, I saved the entire thread. The President will eventually see it.

Dropzone.com forums are an incredibly powerful tool for exposing the truth if a person is willing to work hard enough to seek the truth.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
DSE


Did you talk to the President of USPA? Did you personally speak with anyone involved with the investigations? Did you call the BOD member in question?
Or that you'd just accept one email from a disgruntled BOD member because it fits your facts?
No wonder you never made detective in the NYPD.;)



So I am bit intrigued about this, Spot.
Did you talk to the USPA President? Did you get any information about the accident?
Did you talk to anyone involved with the investigations? Did you get any information about the accident?
Did you call the BOD member in question? Did you get any information about the accident?
What 'disgruntled BOD member' sent out an email? and what did it say?


.
.
Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
lyosha

I don't know about anyone else, but I'm not going for blood. It's up to the girl or her family to file any criminal charges.

I just want him to give up his position of leadership... too much to ask? This whole situation is a ticking time bomb. If the press get wind of it it might turn into a real shit show...



I seriously doubt criminal charges would ever be filed in a case like this even if the victim filed a criminal report. Even if they did prosecute, what would the charge be? Stupid or not, this was an accident so unless someone dies or sustains debilitating injuries there wouldn't be much interest on the part of the prosecutors.

As for the media, they couldn't give a rat's butt about a tiny membership organization's soap opera antics. Hell, they think we're all loons anyway.

No time bomb here.
Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
lyosha

***Hell, they think we're all loons anyway.



Yeah, but I think that increases the media frenzy, not decreases it. People don't watch news for news nowadays. They watch news for blown-out-of-proportion drama...

Silly viewers, they should just log on here for blown out of proportion dramaB|

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
grimmie

umm, wasn't "allseeingeye" defending the USPA president and calling out Stratostar?

Geez these threads stay so on topic:P



I personally have a problem with allseeingeye due to the big words they were using. We shouldn't have to resort to a dictionary to figure out what their saying.

Women hater would have worked for me,[:/]
One Jump Wonder

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
lyosha

***Hell, they think we're all loons anyway.



Yeah, but I think that increases the media frenzy, not decreases it. People don't watch news for news nowadays. They watch news for blown-out-of-proportion drama...

If that was the case skydivers would be on the news every night.;)

They do like drama, but they like it with the broadest possible audience. Hollywood, politics, etc.
Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
peek

Mr. "allseeingeye", have you had second thoughts about what you repeated/paraphrased? You should.



A few people told me that my comment above was confusing. What I meant was that if someone made a derogatory statement about someone that I know and respect, that my admonishment to them would not repeat or paraphrase it, thereby stating it all over again. I would include only the admonishment.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Gee I missed that little dandy..... Let's see there, Randy, no I'm not saying she blew Glen to get her current seat, nor was that implied as to how she got her first seat.

She got it the same way you earn it, by having connections to the right people and getting appointed to fill a chair. As one of favorite outlaw DZO's would say... from being a suck ass.

Nope when I was talking about the "cock suckers", I was talking about people like Glen, who send out guy's like Tom Welgos to look into things of their other buddies, mostly known each other from the service.... I guess circle jerk would have been a better choice of words then cock suckers.

But then again. were you not sent a personal invite to the circle jerk? Looks that way to me, you seem to fit right in at the good old boys club, looks like you might even be trying to earn one of those fancy sport jackets with logo on it.

And indeed (Randy A.) there have been some pretty good cover ups in the past and one pretty good attempted but failed one, but I'm sure the buried report can be found in those deep dark files in HQ for the "select readers" to see. You are on the board I'm sure you could pull rank and go digging around in those files and find a copy of the "Midwest investigation" and you'll learn why the USPA, after spending a shit load of membership monies to send around one their hand picked good old boy's to do a lookie loo, decided not to publish or run with all that.... you might also learn about an in person visit to the USPA HQ by the very FAA investigator who was named in that report and what she had to say to Mr. Scott up at HQ.

Kind of funny how some people are hand picked for tasks and end up on the circle jerk team, yet still don't have a clue or at least want to maintain the party line in public. The FAA subpoenaed obtained records that were available to the public, via the Freedom of Information Act, don't lie.

Like I said, way worse USPA leaders in the way back past (70's 80's 90's) and present (2000's and on) then Rich Winstocks fuck up and so called "cover up"!
you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
So, if I’m reading section 1-6 of the Governance Manual correctly, the Disciplinary Group that would investigate the Rich Winstock incident will have five members:

1. Rich Winstock (S&T Committee Chairman)
2. Jim Crouch (Director of S&T)
3. Randy Allison (Group Member Committee Chairman)
4. Randy Schroeder (Eastern Regional Director)
5. ??? - A National Director appointed by the President

That’s… interesting.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
MakeItHappen

***
Did you talk to the President of USPA? Did you personally speak with anyone involved with the investigations? Did you call the BOD member in question?
Or that you'd just accept one email from a disgruntled BOD member because it fits your facts?
No wonder you never made detective in the NYPD.;)



So I am bit intrigued about this, Spot.
Did you talk to the USPA President? Did you get any information about the accident? yes
Did you talk to anyone involved with the investigations? Did you get any information about the accident? yes
Did you call the BOD member in question? Did you get any information about the accident? Yes
What 'disgruntled BOD member' sent out an email? and what did it say?.

I've already answered in a private email response to your private email inquiry. Someone else may be able to provide a more in-depth response.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
What that cat said (I don't know him) was downright rude and insulting, not to mention slanderous. If she were my wife, Id kick Mr. "All seeing guy's" ass. It's one thing for an incident to take place, it's another to say ugly, mean, rude and hateful things. Nuff said.

Best-
Richard

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account. It's free!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
0