Any dropzones out there that use a Piper Navajo?

[gunsmokex 1]

Any one there know of any DZ's that use a Piper Navajo as their jump plane? http://www.trade-a-plane.com/detail/aircraft/Multi+Engine+Piston/1968/Piper/Navajo/2167148.html

Just was curious if cost wise it'd better to have one of these instead 2 small cessnas? (C-182/C-206)

The one in the ad has a REALLY insane looking step lol.

[gunsmokex 1]

Different ad same plane http://www.aircraftmerchants.com/cf/acDetail.cfm?AircraftId=77FFF0C1-880B-452B-8A9C-F6008C09ADB4

[jumpsalot-2 2]

That's a good looking little plane.

Life is short ... jump often.

[riggerrob 558]

Lots of Australian DZs used to use Navajos, but eventually wore them out and replaced them with turbines.
A few Canadian DZs use/used Navajos during this century: Alexandria, Westlock, Niagara, Pitt Meadows, etc.
Be sure to get the larger (350 horsepower) engines and make sure your pilot is well-trained, especially on how to fly with only one engine.

Station a large, angry dog aft of the cabin door to discourage stupid skydivers from sitting too far aft.

[skyfreek 1]

We have been using navs at my home dz for 3 years. One had a 'panther mod', which is the 350 HP engines, 4 blade Qtip props, and wing tips. Pretty quick, depending on the pilot. The other one is a chieftain. Basically newer model, same 350's, but longer fuselage. Pilots liked the chief better. The planes are decent for tandems, wingsuiters hate them, and tough for tall guys. Piston engines, so shut downs are fine. 2-4 loads before fuelling, depending on pilot. Comfy if there are benches, great windows for passenger lookouts.
Poor mans king air...

[Amazon 7]

gunsmokex

Any one there know of any DZ's that use a Piper Navajo as their jump plane? http://www.trade-a-plane.com/detail/aircraft/Multi+Engine+Piston/1968/Piper/Navajo/2167148.html

Just was curious if cost wise it'd better to have one of these instead 2 small cessnas? (C-182/C-206)

The one in the ad has a REALLY insane looking step lol.

I think the one in the ad is operated here in Washington State at Skydive Toledo.

[douwanto 22]

Give Charlie Gittins at Blueridge skydiving Adventures a call he uses one and can give you the skinny.

Uncle/GrandPapa Whit
Unico Rodriguez # 245
Muff Brother # 2421

[gunsmokex 1]

Thanks for all of the replies. Charlie gave me the lowdown on them. Maybe someday in the future we can pick one of these or a Chieftan definitely a nice intermediate option without the $$ of a turbine.

[riggerrob 558]

All Navajos are powered by Lycoming TIO-540 engines producing between 310 to 425 horsepower. 350 horsepower was the most popular production variant. The best Navajos have contra-rotating propellers to ease the pilot's job after one engine quits. Despite urban myths, single-engine flight is the MOST dangerous time to ride in a light twin.
Colemill Navajo Panther conversions drive 350 horsepower (per side) through 4-bladed, Q-tip propellers. Colemill also standardized "winglets" that lengthen the wingspan and improve climb rates.

[diablopilot 2]

For the acquisition cost of a Navajo you might consider a King Air. We've got one for sale......

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[riggerrob 558]

How do you discourage skydivers from sitting aft of the Navajo's cargo door?

We have seen red lines painted on the floors of Skyvans along with warning signs in three or more languages.

We have seen a fabric bulkhead in a Twin Otter.

We have suggested stationing a small, fierce dog aft of the door.

Any other suggestions?

[jumpsalot-2 2]

The stomach dropping feeling of stalling every 60 seconds .... and of course, that damn buzzer going off .......

Life is short ... jump often.

[skyfreek 1]

Our chieftain, and the leased Navajo both have straddle benches. Makes seatbelts easier, and keeps peeps away from the door line.

[gunsmokex 1]

diablopilot

For the acquisition cost of a Navajo you might consider a King Air. We've got one for sale......

A King Air would be nice but unfortunately our DZ isn't quite big enough for one. I did a little research as well and you may find this interesting http://www.utilityaircraft.com/costcomparisons.html Its a comparison sheet on some common skydiving planes. Of course its from the company that makes the PAC so of course its going to favor their plane, take it with a grain of salt.

I'm interested to know if those that operate the PAC-750 find that it is a cheaper plane to operate than the rest?

[hackish 8]

I find they're a really nice AC to fly except a few things.
-Small door
-Touchy C/G
-Difficult engine heat management.

Jump run is a little quicker than many jump AC but it's manageable. You can't hang 4 in the door, you'll run out of elevator authority long before that! Tandems are manageable as well, not great but easier than a 182!

You also need to adjust your maintenance program to pay significant attention to the condition of the gear. It doesn't like the number of cycles from a skydiving op so you have to look hard at the time based maintenance and check/lube all the parts way more often.

Another thing to look closely at is the exact engine spec. Make sure you have the heavy case variant. They do make a good stepping stone before you grow to a caravan.

-Michael

[RMK 3]

riggerrob

Despite urban myths, single-engine flight is the MOST dangerous time to ride in a light twin.

Yes, it's noted that with twin engines should one fail, the remaining engine can be used to fly the aircraft to the scene of the crash site.

"Pain is the best instructor, but no one wants to attend his classes"

[MrShave 0]

Ahhh!!! That's my Navajo and home DZ!!! :)

I'll be sad to see it go with such a kick ass registration (November 420 Whiskey Whiskey!!!!)

I can' tell you about costs or anything, but jumping out of it is interesting. The jump run is very fast (which is fun in its own right). The door can only have 2 people outside with one person in (so max 3 way linked). We've launched 4 ways out of it with the 4th person diving. Anything beyond that makes it hard to get everyone together. Our tandem instructors and camera flyers didn't seem to have any problems with it.

We typically only flew it to 10,500 (but we have taken it to 12,500 on occasion). I'm not sure if that was due to operation costs or time to altitude (its a little quicker than a 182, but not much).

[DJL 232]

RMK

*** Despite urban myths, single-engine flight is the MOST dangerous time to ride in a light twin.

Yes, it's noted that with twin engines should one fail, the remaining engine can be used to fly the aircraft to the scene of the crash site.
This quote is usually followed with "No really...the remaining engine can be used the fly the aircraft to the scene of the crash site." I've never heard anyone say, "So glad we have a Navajo."

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[fencebuster 7]

I run a Navajo at New Market, Virginia (Blue Ridge Skydiving Adventures). We allow 3 outside, max. Jump run is about 90 mph. TIs love it -- slide to the door on your butt, safety position, and roll out on count of three. No question it is expensive to operate, unless you compare it to a turbine. Small DZs general can't afford to keep a turbine running all day and starts get to be expensive. Not to mention that the typical turbine is minimum $400 per hour dry (PACs more like 500-550) or over $1M to acquire. We take fun jumpers and solo students to 12,000, tandems about 10,000 unless the loads are mixed, then everyone gets the higher altitude. 9 jumpers per load at about 20 gallons 100 LL per cycle. Just like any other airplane, you need to provide it with regular maintenance both preventative and recurring. It is a logical aircraft for tweeners -- not enough business to support a turbine but more than enough for two 182s. Plus we can still run the 182 on slow days or add it on busy days.

Charlie Gittins, 540-327-2208
AFF-I, Sigma TI, IAD-I
MEI, CFI-I, Senior Rigger
Former DZO, Blue Ridge Skydiving Adventures

[riggerrob 558]

fencebuster

I run a Navajo ....... TIs love it -- slide to the door on your butt, safety position, and roll out on count of three. .........

.....................................................................

New terminology?????

"safety position?"

I assume that you mean doing the "giant banana" in the doorway?
The student doing something vaguely resembling an arch????
Should we move this part of the discussion to the tandem forum?

Where is the break-even point (number of jump seats per day, number of seats per month, number of seats per year) before you add a Navajo to your fleet ..... add a single turbine ..... add a twin turbine ....?

[fencebuster 7]

Safety Position: Hands on main lift web of student harness, elbows in, head back, legs tucked under airplane; arch on exit.

Good questions, all. We started with one 182. We added a C-U206 and still needed additional capacity and we are a mostly weekend only operation. So I looked for a step up -- the Nav allows us to put 4 tandems in the airplane at a time plus a video or fun jumper; it climbs fast and is much more comfortable than a 182 for the TIs. We alternate loads of tandem with AFF/Coach/fun jumpers loads on busy days. We do not have the capacity for a turbine yet, or we'd have to change to a 5 day per week DZ for a season the way we are set up now to generate the traffic to support a turbine. Most of my skydiving staff are happy to jump weekends only as they are mostly gainfully employed outside skydiving, as am I, and my wife, who owns the business with me.

Charlie Gittins, 540-327-2208
AFF-I, Sigma TI, IAD-I
MEI, CFI-I, Senior Rigger
Former DZO, Blue Ridge Skydiving Adventures

[erdnarob 1]

If you really want to know the characteristics of a Navajo as a jump plane, contact Victoriaville DZ in Quebec at [email protected].They are flying Navajos for a longtime (10 years +) and they seem to be happy with them. At that DZ, Navajos are flew by very experienced pilots. What I appreciate from the Navajo is the relatively quiet flight.

Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.