It's really no wonder why DZ.com has become more stagnant over time.

[nwt 131]

On 11/11/2021 at 4:21 PM, BIGUN said:

Being really good at PLF's is best. 

I think everyone should master the PLF first, but the PLF and slide are different tools for different scenarios. The PLF is designed for a high vertical speed, and works by converting that vertical speed to horizontal. It was developed in the days of round parachutes.

Sliding is intended for landings where you've successfully arrested your vertical descent, but your horizontal speed is too fast to run. In this scenario, assuming proficiency in both techniques on terrain where both can be done safely, sliding is better.

[nwt 131]

1 hour ago, Cocowheats said:

The thought was that anything less than a tiptoe soft landing would be feet touch down to absorb and then go to butt or PLF, depending on the situation(example: elevator rides=definite PLF, fast forward momentum from low wind=likely slide). I wore a brace, as suggested by my surgeon, because twisting the ankle was one of the big concerns since I had relearned to walk/run.

We already talked about butt vs. hip, but the sliding technique I learned and recommend (with professional instruction and coaching) is to go straight to your hip without touching your feet first. The only way I know to touch feet first when you're too fast to run is to slide on them, which (1) is tricky and hazardous and (2) defeats the purpose of sliding on your hip. If you're skilled enough to slide on your feet safely, why not just continue sliding on them until you're slow enough to run?

[DougH 270]

2 hours ago, Cocowheats said:

Not sure if that's a dig at me suggesting I have multiple accounts, but I don't. I'm not the whoever person you folks think I am on some new account. Any of the mods should be able to track my IP and see that.

Here's the thread.

The best constructive feedback I received was to upsize, which was already part of the game plan. I did not jump until my surgeon said I was physically healed to do any and all physical activities I desire, including skydiving. He has a full understanding of what I did and my desire to fly again and cleared me when he saw fit to.

It wasn't a dig, and I wasn't implying that, I was simply unable to find the post you just linked to when I looked at your posts from your profile.

By my account you actually received plenty of constructive feedback in that thread, and important discussion amount the potential risks of landing butt first.

Here was one from PChapman that was spot on:

Quote

Normally one tries to slide while twisted a bit to the side, trying to slide on one butt cheek. (Pretty much the 'baseball slide' if I have the terminology right.) Thus if you drop down suddenly a bit, or you hit a bump, you don't smack down straight on your tailbone or compress the spine as suddenly. It might still hurt, but the shock to the spine will be less.

That post got more responses than most do in the Gear and Rigging forum typically get nowadays.

I think my initial analysis still stands, you got replies, they just weren't what you wanted to hear. I didn't anticipate that you were also upset over a few jokes about butts, how were we to know that your feelings were as fragile as your ankle.

[BIGUN 1,049]

 

3 hours ago, nwt said:

I think everyone should master the PLF first, but the PLF and slide are different tools for different scenarios. The PLF is designed for a high vertical speed, and works by converting that vertical speed to horizontal. It was developed in the days of round parachutes.

Sliding is intended for landings where you've successfully arrested your vertical descent, but your horizontal speed is too fast to run. In this scenario, assuming proficiency in both techniques on terrain where both can be done safely, sliding is better.

We're going to have to disagree. I am a round student, both in the military and civilian. First skydiving rig was a paracommander. And, I have swooped a canopy @ 1.8 WL, bled it off, and still did PLFs. The only time I did butt slides was as a TI and even then it was very infrequently and out of concern for the student hurting themselves.     

[wmw999 2,116]

I PLF when I'm going forward too fast (often), as well as going down too fast (rare), or just not feeling good about the landing. I probably stand up about 50% of my landings; far fewer in no-wind consitions. I've had excellent luck with PLFing on rounds and squares.

Wendy P.

[timski 80]

On 11/6/2021 at 8:03 PM, David Wang said:

 

As a new jumper I think I actually got a lot of help from people on dz.com... maybe because I posted a lot of questions here in the past.

No Bro, YOU bring a positive vibe! That my friend goes a long way.  

[nwt 131]

53 minutes ago, BIGUN said:

 

We're going to have to disagree. I am a round student, both in the military and civilian. First skydiving rig was a paracommander. And, I have swooped a canopy @ 1.8 WL, bled it off, and still did PLFs. The only time I did butt slides was as a TI and even then it was very infrequently and out of concern for the student hurting themselves.     

 

38 minutes ago, wmw999 said:

I PLF when I'm going forward too fast (often), as well as going down too fast (rare), or just not feeling good about the landing. I probably stand up about 50% of my landings; far fewer in no-wind consitions. I've had excellent luck with PLFing on rounds and squares.

Wendy P.

I think you misunderstand. There's nothing wrong with PLF and you can do it all you want without any criticism from me.

But please don't advocate against others learning newer techniques from professional coaches just because you've chosen not to learn them yourself.

[wmw999 2,116]

54 minutes ago, nwt said:

But please don't advocate against others learning newer techniques from professional coaches just because you've chosen not to learn them yourself.

Maybe, then, you should acknowledge that maybe, just maybe, people who can't run out their landings, might not also be able to slide them because it's their judgment of the landing speed that's the problem, not their running ability. And unless you're damn sure that you don't have to much downward speed, I'll still contend that a slide is a riskier move than a PLF.

Wendy P.

[billvon 2,380]

23 minutes ago, wmw999 said:

And unless you're damn sure that you don't have to much downward speed, I'll still contend that a slide is a riskier move than a PLF.

Agreed.  If there's one constant out there, it's that people misjudge landings - specifically vertical rate when you get to zero altitude.  And when that happens, you are better off absorbing the impact with your legs than with your spine.

"But my ankle is weak and I might break it!" - Yep.  But better a broken ankle than paralysis.

[JoeWeber 2,294]

27 minutes ago, wmw999 said:

Maybe, then, you should acknowledge that maybe, just maybe, people who can't run out their landings, might not also be able to slide them because it's their judgment of the landing speed that's the problem, not their running ability. And unless you're damn sure that you don't have to much downward speed, I'll still contend that a slide is a riskier move than a PLF.

Wendy P.

You're dating yourself, sister. PLF was that outfit that kidnapped Patty Hearst if memory serves.

[nwt 131]

4 hours ago, wmw999 said:

Maybe, then, you should acknowledge that maybe, just maybe, people who can't run out their landings, might not also be able to slide them because it's their judgment of the landing speed that's the problem, not their running ability.

Of course. I don't know why you're saying "maybe" three times as if you're sure I'd disagree. I think I've made it abundantly clear that sliding isn't for everyone and that my recommendation is to learn the technique from a professional coach. If there are missing prerequisite skills, they will be put on the right path for them.

4 hours ago, wmw999 said:

And unless you're damn sure that you don't have to much downward speed, I'll still contend that a slide is a riskier move than a PLF.

I agree with this as well. When I slide, I've already been moving horizontally just above the ground with zero downward speed. There is no vertical speed to mis-judge.

3 hours ago, billvon said:

And when that happens, you are better off absorbing the impact with your legs than with your spine.

I've already explained at least once in this thread that the proper technique has the femur absorbing the impact and not the spine. If you're coming down with anywhere near enough vertical energy to break your femur, I would absolutely recommend a PLF.

I honestly can't believe you guys. I'm not trying to convince anyone to slide. I'm saying it's an option people can talk to their coaches about if they want to. And you guys are saying what? Don't talk to your professional canopy coach about it, we know better? That's really a disservice to the community.

[Baksteen 84]

5 hours ago, nwt said:

Of course. I don't know why you're saying "maybe" three times as if you're sure I'd disagree. I think I've made it abundantly clear that sliding isn't for everyone and that my recommendation is to learn the technique from a professional coach. If there are missing prerequisite skills, they will be put on the right path for them.

I agree with this as well. When I slide, I've already been moving horizontally just above the ground with zero downward speed. There is no vertical speed to mis-judge.

I've already explained at least once in this thread that the proper technique has the femur absorbing the impact and not the spine. If you're coming down with anywhere near enough vertical energy to break your femur, I would absolutely recommend a PLF.

I honestly can't believe you guys. I'm not trying to convince anyone to slide. I'm saying it's an option people can talk to their coaches about if they want to. And you guys are saying what? Don't talk to your professional canopy coach about it, we know better? That's really a disservice to the community.

I can't speak for the others, but my own aversion against slidings has nothing to do with your arguments.

It's due to all the people who are rock-solid convinced that any stand-up landing is a perfect landing, that PLFs are for N00Bs, that slidings are better than PLFs because they are (name the excuse).

You on the other hand are saying that the sliding is an advanced landing technique which may be applicable in some circumstances provided that you first learned how to do them in controlled circumstances with feedback of an expert.

You are right. But for a large part of people that's not going to be the take home message.

To sum up, the standard approach to any landing in dodgy circumstances - or perhaps to any landing, period - should be "PLF, unless..."

Edited December 1, 2021 by Baksteen
changed "coach" to "expert" to prevent confusion with USPA-rating

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

12 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

You're dating yourself, sister. PLF was that outfit that kidnapped Patty Hearst if memory serves.

You're getting old Joe. 

Your memory 'isn't serving' very well 

SLA, not PLF.

Symbionese Liberation Army

And I'll restate what I said in the original thread:

PLFs are a basic technique every jumper should know. They allow a jumper to walk (limping a little bit) away from impacts that would break bones normally.
They work well for both high vertical speeds as well as high horizontal ones. 
I've had a partial canopy collapse at about 25'. I've ended up with about a 10mph tailwind. PLF'd & walked away from both.

Slides are a fairly advanced technique. They require training & practice and don't work in a lot of situations where a PLF will.

 

[JoeWeber 2,294]

Just now, wolfriverjoe said:

You're getting old Joe. 

Your memory 'isn't serving' very well 

SLA, not PLF.

Symbionese Liberation Army

And I'll restate what I said in the original thread:

PLFs are a basic technique every jumper should know. They allow a jumper to walk (limping a little bit) away from impacts that would break bones normally.
They work well for both high vertical speeds as well as high horizontal ones. 
I've had a partial canopy collapse at about 25'. I've ended up with about a 10mph tailwind. PLF'd & walked away from both.

Slides are a fairly advanced technique. They require training & practice and don't work in a lot of situations where a PLF will.

 

ARF.

[BIGUN 1,049]

Just now, JoeWeber said:

ARF.

No. That's the "Animal Rescue Foundation." 

[gowlerk 1,903]

44 minutes ago, wolfriverjoe said:

PLFs are a basic technique every jumper should know. They allow a jumper to walk (limping a little bit) away from impacts that would break bones normally.

Why is this discussion of PLFs happening in SC?

[Phil1111 908]

7 hours ago, Baksteen said:

I can't speak for the others, ....

To sum up, the standard approach to any landing in dodgy circumstances - or perhaps to any landing, period - should be "PLF, unless..."

Sure you can. An aversion to PLFs is an invitation to a sprained ankle, broken ankle or something more serious. If the brain isn't in gear on landing the bones or muscles in the body may get the gears.

[nwt 131]

10 hours ago, Baksteen said:

You are right. But for a large part of people that's not going to be the take home message.

I feel like I've emphasized those points so heavily that one would have to willfully misconstrue my statements to miss them.

[billvon 2,380]

3 hours ago, gowlerk said:

Why is this discussion of PLFs happening in SC?

I'm not sure (I didn't move it) but I suspect it's due to the "It's really no wonder why DZ.com has become more stagnant over time" content.

[DougH 270]

On 12/1/2021 at 12:15 AM, nwt said:

I've already explained at least once in this thread that the proper technique has the femur absorbing the impact and not the spine. If you're coming down with anywhere near enough vertical energy to break your femur, I would absolutely recommend a PLF.

We sure love muddying the water around and going of on tangents. May I remind you that the post that was exhibit A for the claims of our collective douche baggery was a question about ass padding, so he could land on his ass. He wasn't asking about hip pads so he could slide the safer way on his femur, so why are we going in circles about this.

[nwt 131]

48 minutes ago, DougH said:

We sure love muddying the water around and going of on tangents. May I remind you that the post that was exhibit A for the claims of our collective douche baggery was a question about ass padding, so he could land on his ass. He wasn't asking about hip pads so he could slide the safer way on his femur, so why are we going in circles about this.

I believe I warned him that landing on his ass was dangerous, and nobody in the entire thread(s) ever advocated for an ass landing so... yes, why do we keep circling back to ass landings?

[DougH 270]

46 minutes ago, nwt said:

I believe I warned him that landing on his ass was dangerous, and nobody in the entire thread(s) ever advocated for an ass landing so... yes, why do we keep circling back to ass landings?

Because it is a speakers corner thread about how we all suck, and you keep bringing up a technical analysis of skydiving?

You didn't understand the assignment, please address the fact that we suck, and take skydiving to the subject matter forums. 

Edited December 2, 2021 by DougH

[ryoder 1,381]

I’m going to wander over to General Skydiving and see how their thread on the January 6th Committee is going. 

[jakee 1,254]

On 12/1/2021 at 5:15 AM, nwt said:

I've already explained at least once in this thread that the proper technique has the femur absorbing the impact and not the spine. If you're coming down with anywhere near enough vertical energy to break your femur, I would absolutely recommend a PLF.

Someone correct me if I’m wrong but I’m pretty sure that the way hard, non-bendy objects absorb impact energy is by breaking. When they don’t they just transfer it all to the next component in line.

[winsor 185]

22 hours ago, ryoder said:

I’m going to wander over to General Skydiving and see how their thread on the January 6th Committee is going. 

Gear and Rigging has a discussion on tin-foil frap hats.