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brenthutch

California’s cautionary tale

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https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/10/08/energy-crisis-nuclear-natural-gas-renewable-climate/

“In California, Gov. Gavin Newsom has ordered companies owning backup diesel generators to operate them nonstop when electricity demand is high in order to avoid rolling blackouts…the places that are furthest along in transitioning to renewable energy are today facing a crisis of power shortages, sky-high electricity prices, and rising carbon emissions...as the share of renewable energy grows in places like California, the technical challenges associated with scaling up renewables become more difficult. Once the share of variable renewable energy (i.e., solar and wind) begins to approach 20 percent or so, it swamps the electrical grid whenever the sun is shining and the wind is blowing. Surges of wind and solar power at particular times of the day not only undermine the economics of other power sources on the grid but also undermine the economics of adding additional wind and solar. This phenomenon, called value deflation, is already eroding the economics of wind and solar in California…New facilities combining solar generation and battery storage are also being developed much more slowly than the planners’ Pollyannaish assumptions, not least because of the unrealistic amount of battery storage required in the state’s generation plan over the next three years compared to current global battery production capacity.”

We should all thank California for “taking one for the team” and showing us the folly of “going green”

 

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This policy is nothing new.

At Qualcomm, they have three gas turbines that they run on hot days.  It generates power for the campus, and the waste heat runs the campus air conditioning system.  Overall it's a lot more efficient than the peakers SDG+E would otherwise have to run.  They've been doing that for 22 years now.

There are dozens of systems all over California like this, and they've been used in a similar fashion for decades.

This is yet another attempt by the right wing to generate FUD over renewable energy.

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Dear brenthutch,

It is not as simple as your conclusion.

Every new system has its hiccups.

It is just going to take the California grid a few more years to build sufficient battery capacity.

Note that I said "California grid." That grid includes thousands of different components ... and the perfect system includes a balance of components.

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1 hour ago, billvon said:

This policy is nothing new.

At Qualcomm, they have three gas turbines that they run on hot days.  It generates power for the campus, and the waste heat runs the campus air conditioning system.  Overall it's a lot more efficient than the peakers SDG+E would otherwise have to run.  They've been doing that for 22 years now.

There are dozens of systems all over California like this, and they've been used in a similar fashion for decades.

This is yet another attempt by the right wing to generate FUD over renewable energy.

“The vast majority of California’s backup power generators – those low buzzing boxes located at internet server farms, hospitals, police stations and other facilities  – are powered by diesel. The state wants to achieve a 100% clean energy future, investing billions of dollars in renewable energy, while at the same time steadily building a fossil fuel powered shadow grid.

In addition to carbon dioxide emissions, diesel releases significant amounts of particulate matter, volatile organic compounds, nitrous oxides and sulfur dioxide. These pollutants create smog and exacerbate respiratory illnesses, such as asthma, chronic obstructive pulmonary disease and lung cancer, especially in children and older adults.”

Diesel generators NOT gas turbines 

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14 hours ago, riggerrob said:

Dear brenthutch,

It is not as simple as your conclusion.

Every new system has its hiccups.

It is just going to take the California grid a few more years to build sufficient battery capacity.

Note that I said "California grid." That grid includes thousands of different components ... and the perfect system includes a balance of components.

The collapse of the water system will happen one day. The delicate ecosystem that is California will reclaim itself. It's just about a matter of time. Weather trends from the past drove native peoples to change how and where they lived. Look at how "modern man" has changed the landscape/waterways to suits our needs.  The fires grow more intense every year. IT will happen. When?  Some scoff at "Global Warming" because they fail to see "The bigger picture". There are so many variables to consider in what actually drives the weather. It is in fact, global. WE are having a profound impact, PERIOD. For anyone to deny that is pure folly and a serious lack of knowledge on how things really work.   

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Not that I've seen it with my own two, but I hear that the "leadership" in Brazil are making (BAD) decisions regarding native lands and the cutting of huge amounts of rainforest. The Brazilian rainforest, AKA the lungs of our world. Once that is gone, ...

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16 minutes ago, timski said:

The Brazilian rainforest, AKA the lungs of our world. Once that is gone, ...

That is a common expression that is completely incorrect. The Amazon region is an incredible place for its biodiversity. It is not "the lungs of the world". If anything can be given such a title it is the ocean. And there is only one ocean despite the fact that we give different parts of it names of their own. Save the plankton if you want to keep breathing. People who live in countries that have converted as much arable land as possible to agriculture are always the ones trying to hold Brazil back from doing the same using emotional and misguided arguments. Worry about your own back yard.

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On 10/25/2021 at 5:02 PM, billvon said:

This policy is nothing new.

At Qualcomm, they have three gas turbines that they run on hot days.  It generates power for the campus, and the waste heat runs the campus air conditioning system.  Overall it's a lot more efficient than the peakers SDG+E would otherwise have to run.  They've been doing that for 22 years now.

There are dozens of systems all over California like this, and they've been used in a similar fashion for decades.

This is yet another attempt by the right wing to generate FUD over renewable energy.

Bill, still nothing on the proliferation of diesel generators?

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On 10/25/2021 at 12:36 PM, brenthutch said:

https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/10/08/energy-crisis-nuclear-natural-gas-renewable-climate/

Pollyannaish assumptions, not least because of the unrealistic amount of battery storage required in the state’s generation plan over the next three years compared to current global battery production capacity.”

We should all thank California for “taking one for the team” and showing us the folly of “going green”

 

Agreed Sir, 

 Pollyannaish assumptions  LOL  Like the estimates of our future energy needs.

SCE  can't keep up with peak demand now, for their failures we get to pay them for a premium pricing event,no joke and it's an increasing phenomenon.

Pollyanna naw, it's a psychosis.

thanks for the insightful read.

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45 minutes ago, richravizza said:

SCE  can't keep up with peak demand now, for their failures we get to pay them for a premium pricing event,no joke and it's an increasing phenomenon.

:Looking back over the past year, I note that Texas utilities are having far more trouble than California utilities in terms of keeping the lights on, due primarily to fossil fuel power systems that could not handle extreme weather events.  Those events will be increasing with time.  Heck, ERCOT is even making noise about connecting to the rest of the US grid, in a desperate attempt to improve reliability.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/massive-power-failure-could-finally-cause-texas-to-connect-with-the-nations-power-grids1/

And because you always gotta have a meme:

ercot.jpeg

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(edited)
On 10/27/2021 at 9:58 AM, gowlerk said:

That is a common expression that is completely incorrect. The Amazon region is an incredible place for its biodiversity. It is not "the lungs of the world". If anything can be given such a title it is the ocean. And there is only one ocean despite the fact that we give different parts of it names of their own. Save the plankton if you want to keep breathing. People who live in countries that have converted as much arable land as possible to agriculture are always the ones trying to hold Brazil back from doing the same using emotional and misguided arguments. Worry about your own back yard.

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/video/polar-extremes/

I hope you and Riggerbob find time to watch this very educational "documentary". You may learn why your wrong. 

Edited by timski
oops

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On 10/31/2021 at 10:47 PM, richravizza said:

Agreed Sir, 

 Pollyannaish assumptions  LOL  Like the estimates of our future energy needs.

SCE  can't keep up with peak demand now, for their failures we get to pay them for a premium pricing event,no joke and it's an increasing phenomenon.

Pollyanna naw, it's a psychosis.

thanks for the insightful read.

lol - CA energy policy and a few other things drive what the utility can and can not do. Anything is possible if one throws enough money at it. In this case the consumers get to pay for the energy policies set by the state.  

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5 hours ago, billeisele said:

lol - CA energy policy and a few other things drive what the utility can and can not do. Anything is possible if one throws enough money at it. In this case the consumers get to pay for the energy policies set by the state.  

I pay about $5 a month for my power.  How about you?

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6 hours ago, billeisele said:

lol - CA energy policy and a few other things drive what the utility can and can not do. Anything is possible if one throws enough money at it. In this case the consumers get to pay for the energy policies set by the state.  

Considering some of those policies include “reduce coal to reduce respiratory illness that is strongly correlated,” and “reduce the smog for which Los Angeles used to be world famous,” and stuff like that, it’s probably worth it in the long run. 
Kind of like how it’s probably better to pay taxes for people to empty public trash cans, than to pay for lots more people to pay for litter pickup. There’s still litter, but less than if there were no cans. 
Wendy P. 

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7 hours ago, wmw999 said:

Considering some of those policies include “reduce coal to reduce respiratory illness that is strongly correlated,” and “reduce the smog for which Los Angeles used to be world famous,” and stuff like that, it’s probably worth it in the long run. 
Kind of like how it’s probably better to pay taxes for people to empty public trash cans, than to pay for lots more people to pay for litter pickup. There’s still litter, but less than if there were no cans. 
Wendy P. 

The energy policies in CA have done a whole lot more than "reduce coal." It's a long story with many twists and turns.

I was replying to the comment, "SCE  can't keep up with peak demand now, for their failures we get to pay them for a premium pricing event, no joke and it's an increasing phenomenon." The comment infers that it's all SCE's fault. Not true.

One thing the policies did was to drive most conventional generation out of the state and make new conventional generation super expensive or impossible to build. I don't want to make too many comments and get in a drawn out discussion with billvon over minor nuances or slight misstatements. We've had those discussion before.

When the generator is moved further and further away from the load one solution is major transmission lines. They are extremely expensive, if they are even possible to build, and have their own drawbacks. One way to discourage folks from using power during peak times is to raise prices. That's exactly how a real-time-pricing rate structure works. A "peak" can be defined as lack of generation but also as lack of transmission capability.

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8 hours ago, billvon said:

I pay about $5 a month for my power.  How about you?

Good day sir. Yes, you've done what most are not willing or maybe capable of doing. As you know, because we've discussed it before, in SC the prices are much lower than CA and the rate structures don't provide a solar subsidy, that other customers are forced to pay, to offset the capital cost. Frankly, I would feel guilty taking the "social welfare" subsidy that's provided by the utility for my solar system but paid to them by all customers including those least capable of affording it. Because of the low rates solar is usually not economically feasible here. So yes, I pay more than $5. But, at least for now, I'll accept service at about half the rate of what is charged in CA and just roll on not worrying about solar hardware and it's headaches.

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