Military jump boots

[GideonY 0]

Anybody have experience with military jump boots, like these

http://www.batesfootwear.com/US/en/11%22-paratrooper-side-zip-boot/20063M.html?dwvar_20063M_color=E02184#cgid=men-use-view-all&start=1


(the picture attached)

Are they providing significant protection for the leg ?

[piisfish 135]

this is not what you want for "regular" civilian jumping.

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[GideonY 0]

piisfish

this is not what you want for "regular" civilian jumping.

Why not ?

[Pobrause 6]

Because you're not exclusively dropping down but coming in with a bit of forward speed. You'll want to walk, slide or run it out most of the time... Those boots are no good at two of those things.
There is a reason most jumpers use shoes with a smooth running surface.
DougH mentioned high top skate shoes and a soft brace.
Go with that and start with some canopy coaching.

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To absent friends

[GideonY 0]

Pobrause

Because you're not exclusively dropping down but coming in with a bit of forward speed. You'll want to walk, slide or run it out most of the time... Those boots are no good at two of those things.
There is a reason most jumpers use shoes with a smooth running surface.
DougH mentioned high top skate shoes and a soft brace.
Go with that and start with some canopy coaching.

Besides of having smooth sole, I don’t see how skate shoes can help landing safety. Even the tallest versions of these providing very little support for the leg.

About military jump boots - it is true that landing with round canopy is vertical. However immediately following the landing their users must walk or run, so I presume that boots are designed to support all these purposes. Seems that they are providing significant support for the leg stability while allowing forward movement as required for landing with square canopy.

[piisfish 135]

OK, so it seems you got lots of advice, from people with "some decent background", both civilian and military, jumping and non jumping. Unfortunately the advice you were given do not go in the way you would like.

So here it comes : It is a great idea. These boots are the best protection you will ever get, plus they will help you tracking feet first and for sitflying. Get a pair or 2 and go jumping. Please come back with your feedback.

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[Pobrause 6]

If you don't care about anything else but ankle support go ahead and jump them. You might even get away with it with this 240 of yours.
But as somebody, that wears military boots for a living I'd highly recommend not using them for anything other then round canopies.

If you can't figure out why 3 pounds of weight and the biggest studs available around your toes aren't good for quick running starts and avoiding getting stuck during a landing please experience it for yourself.
Your mind seems to be set already so go ahead and try them out.

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To absent friends

[Pobrause 6]

So to ease it up a bit and with your tib/fib backround in mind...

The only way I could imagine to be relatively safe that a reoccurance of this injury is highly unlikely is using high closing motocross boots in connection with an orthesis for your knees.
Whether one would want to skydive with this is a different topic though.

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To absent friends

[Hajo 0]

GideonY

***this is not what you want for "regular" civilian jumping.

Why not ?

Because those are combat boots..
the jump-part with the owner is just the beginning of the mission.
Soldiers are not known for changing their boots for every task of their mission.

in sports-jumping, it is only sometimes combat. most of the times it should be fun.
you can wear them, but the best ankle support is to learn how to fly your canopy well ...

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With sufficient thrust,
pigs just fly well

[GideonY 0]

Pobrause

So to ease it up a bit and with your tib/fib backround in mind...

The only way I could imagine to be relatively safe that a reoccurance of this injury is highly unlikely is using high closing motocross boots in connection with an orthesis for your knees.
Whether one would want to skydive with this is a different topic though.

Thank you for easing up.
I myself was wearing this kind of boots more than 5 years, so I’m familiar with their properties.
I admit that I set my mind for them despite arguments.
High motocross boots are too much, even for me ...

[fencebuster 7]

Not to mention, those boots are big and clunky and if you are doing RW and kick someone by accident, you may disable them in free fall. Skate shoes, a pair of keds high tops or the like are a much better choice IMO.

Charlie Gittins, 540-327-2208
AFF-I, Sigma TI, IAD-I
MEI, CFI-I, Senior Rigger
Former DZO, Blue Ridge Skydiving Adventures

[hillson 0]

fencebuster

Not to mention, those boots are big and clunky and if you are doing RW and kick someone by accident, you may disable them in free fall.

Nah...any jumper with half a brain wouldn't let anyone wearing those ridiculous shit-kickers anywhere near their RW formation.

[fencebuster 7]

Well, that would be my position too.

Charlie Gittins, 540-327-2208
AFF-I, Sigma TI, IAD-I
MEI, CFI-I, Senior Rigger
Former DZO, Blue Ridge Skydiving Adventures

[DougH 270]

GideonY

Besides of having smooth sole, I don’t see how skate shoes can help landing safety. Even the tallest versions of these providing very little support for the leg.

Then what about classic chuck tailors?

I want something that is going to slide on the landing surface and provide some support from ankles rolling over.

You have a different need all together.

As was mentioned the best thing you can do is make sure you have soft landings, you are halfway there with the bigger canopy. You can further the goal with canopy coaching, and choosing the jump on favorable wind condition days.

If the tandem masters are bitching about thermals, sink, and moderate turbulence I would recommend that you take notice and sit your ass down!

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[GideonY 0]

DougH

As was mentioned the best thing you can do is make sure you have soft landings, you are halfway there with the bigger canopy. You can further the goal with canopy coaching, and choosing the jump on favorable wind condition days.

If the tandem masters are bitching about thermals, sink, and moderate turbulence I would recommend that you take notice and sit your ass down!

Sure, I will take all recommended precautions. I have a feeling that my ass will sit a lot. Life sucks.
I'm still digesting the unexpected overwhelmingly negative reaction to military jump boots.

[Amazon 7]

GideonY

Anybody have experience with military jump boots, like these

http://www.batesfootwear.com/US/en/11%22-paratrooper-side-zip-boot/20063M.html?dwvar_20063M_color=E02184#cgid=men-use-view-all&start=1


(the picture attached)

Are they providing significant protection for the leg ?

I started jumping in 1972... I started jumping in jump boots and later in the military I jumped my Corcorans ( jump boots) at a time when many civilians were still jumping "French Jump Boots" Cute little padded things they were.

We jumped rounds.... we pounded into the ground on every jump.

We do not do that anymore, ram air canopies to not deliver you to the ground in that manner. Jump boots are not needed unless you intend to land with a very heavy load of equipment that you release below you on a lanyard and then ditch your parachute gear and go fight a war.

Look around at your DZ and see what the experienced people are wearing and how they are landing....buy accordingly.. I will stop there.

( Psst just in case you are thinking it... please don't..I am NOT a little itty bitty floaty butt. I have over 100 military jumps under rounds including C-9 canopies... A LOT of civilian jumps under ragged out surplus gear and many hundreds of jumps under Para Commanders and Papillion canopies. and I still have OEM landing gear without any of those fancy titanium after market parts that seem to be all the rage)

[GideonY 0]

Thank you for your answer, I hoped to hear the opinion from somebody who actually used Corcorans or similar jump boots.

Actually there is a guy in our DZ who always wears his military service boots for fun jumps. Those are commando boots, they are not exactly jump boots, but quite similar. By the way this guy is a medical doctor, so I assume that he knows what he is doing. Since I started this "boot exploration" session a week ago, I still did not have a chance to catch him and ask his opinion directly.

From what you wrote I understand that jump boots are not needed for landings on ram air canopies. Yet I have two questions which I hope you can answer based on your experience:

1. Is there any increased difficulty to land properly on square canopy while wearing jump boots ?
2. Are jump boots contribute anything to leg protection in the rare case when landing goes wrong ?

[DougH 270]

Amazon

I still have OEM landing gear without any of those fancy titanium after market parts that seem to be all the rage)

I think the forward speed play a big role in this.

Straight down with a good PLF you absorb a lot of energy, and the joint is strong in this configuration.

I think my injury was a chain reaction, probably starting with sudden jolting stop of the foot when it caught on the ground, and the continued motion of my student and I. The tibia or fibula didn't like the amount of force it received while being at that angle of misalignment, and once one side went it encouraged the other side of blow up too.

At least it sounded cool, and I got these killer non slip socks.

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[DougH 270]

GideonY

From what you wrote I understand that jump boots are in no need for landings on ram air canopies. Yet I have two questions which I hope you can answer based on your experience:

1. Is there any increased difficulty to land properly on square canopy while wearing jump boots ?
2. Are jump boots contribute anything to leg protection in the rare case when landing goes wrong ?

These questions have been answered a bunch of times already in this thread, do you intend to keep asking the question until you find someone to go against the overwhelming collective opinion that it is a bad idea? If that is the case just go buy them and stop wasting our time!

To answer your questions again:

You will experience lots of additional difficulty in landing a square canopy with these large heavy boots, with raised heals, and grippy soles.

You won't be able to slide or run as well as you would have with appropriate footwear, and that will negatively impact your ability to reduce jolts and force to your lower legs.

The second part of your question is too broad, the answer is different depending on the circumstance of each landing, and what force your were trying to protect against. Straight down in turbulence, sliding, tumbling, running out a landing?

And to your list of questions whether they will protect you against jolting landings when your boots stick in the ground when you would have otherwise slid.

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[JohnMitchell 14]

GideonY

By the way this guy is a medical doctor, so I assume that he knows what he is doing.

Well, that was your 1st mistake.

Quote

Since I started this "boot exploration" session a week ago, I still did not have a chance to catch him and ask his opinion directly.

From what you wrote I understand that jump boots are not needed for landings on ram air canopies. Yet I have two questions which I hope you can answer based on your experience:

1. Is there any increased difficulty to land properly on square canopy while wearing jump boots ?
2. Are jump boots contribute anything to leg protection in the rare case when landing goes wrong ?

Yes, I think you can run/slide out better in skate shoes instead of grippy boots.

I, too, learned on rounds and used to use jump boots. They restrict ankle and foot movement and "feel" in free fall, which hampers your flying. Plus, no one wants to get clunked by those things if the skydiving goes poorly.

I've read studies that say the benefit of high top shoes and boots for ankle protection is overestimated. I think technique matters more when you're trying to remain uninjured in a hard landing. A good PLF can be done in tennis shoes quite well. Boots up to your neck won't save you if your legs are apart and the ankles are free to twist.

So, wear your boots if you want to. Some people do. Just don't use equipment as a substitute for skill. Still know how to land well and how to PLF when you don't land well. And don't be surprised if people look askance at your footwear. That's just the way it is these days.

[GideonY 0]

DougH

These questions have been answered a bunch of times already in this thread, do you intend to keep asking the question until you find someone to go against the overwhelming collective opinion that it is a bad idea? If that is the case just go buy them and stop wasting our time!

As specified in post header, this question was not addressed to you but rather to user which nickname is [Amazon]. I have quite difficulty to understand why you are insisting to answer it and at the same time complaining about wasting your time.

[JohnMitchell 14]

Amazon

I still have OEM landing gear without any of those fancy titanium after market parts that seem to be all the rage)

You and I still aren't part of the "Metal Mulisha"

[pchapman 261]

There are arguments that show that heavy boots aren't all bad.

With your experience you wouldn't be on fast canopies yet where it is more awkward to have grippy boots, and where being able to slide part of a landing is a more useful ability. BASE jumpers on big squares have often used supportive boots (including Hanwag paragliding boots) in rougher terrain. One certainly can run in boots.

Nevertheless, they are still generally not a great idea and generally not needed and are a hazard if doing formations with other jumpers. If you need ankle support there may be somewhat less extreme solutions.

[RopeaDope 0]

I have experience with with just about all the black, green, and tan "regulation" combat boots as a grunt for 15 years.

Those "jump boots" are almost exclusively worn with the Class A dress uniform. As a young grunt I got a pair because they looked cool. After my first 12 mile ruck march with them, I had a stress fracture in my foot because they suck are are made for looks.

As for the soles and skate shoes and all that, think about what happened with DougH landing a big ole tandem and having his foot get snagged. Military boots have a heal. Great for walking in snow and mud, not so great when you land a canopy and those boots hold their ground while the rest of your body keeps moving forward.

Also with better brands of all leather combat boots, you can still role your ankle walking down a flat sidewalk.

*If "jump boots" are such a good idea, why are they not allowed at basic airborne school?

http://www.benning.army.mil/infantry/rtb/1-507th/airborne/clothingreq.html

**and BTW http://www.acuarmy.com/acu-combat-boots-c-5229_2417.html the $45 pair at the bottom is "standard issue". The rest are authorized, but you are buying them on your own dime

[Amazon 7]

GideonY

Thank you for your answer, I hoped to hear the opinion from somebody who actually used Corcorans or similar jump boots.

Actually there is a guy in our DZ who always wears his military service boots for fun jumps. Those are commando boots, they are not exactly jump boots, but quite similar. By the way this guy is a medical doctor, so I assume that he knows what he is doing. Since I started this "boot exploration" session a week ago, I still did not have a chance to catch him and ask his opinion directly.

From what you wrote I understand that jump boots are not needed for landings on ram air canopies. Yet I have two questions which I hope you can answer based on your experience:

1. Is there any increased difficulty to land properly on square canopy while wearing jump boots ?
2. Are jump boots contribute anything to leg protection in the rare case when landing goes wrong ?

1.) If you are coming in fast.... you may need to slide or run out the landing. running shoes are far better at that than something like my Corcorans that I had a cool set of Vibrams put on... ( I loved my Corcorans since I had broken them in REALLY well and I wanted to use them on rough terrain).. but under a ram air.. as others have said.. good grip is not something you really want.

2.) Spotting is your friend... Learn to do it and you will alleviate a lot of any needed leg protection in off landing.. which still can happen to the best of us. I even had a big ole diamond back hit the upper side of the boots once... in Florida on a dumb ass load that I did not spot and had to do some significant hiking to get to a road. Choose who you jump with carefully.. even a square cannot overcome all cases of spotting dumbassery.