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samblack

Logbook Etiquette

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End of the day, the guys get together to have a cold one. I normally just fill it in right there, and then the guys are more than happy to sign. And it sparks them to get their logbooks out as well.

I try and get signature from different people all the time, just my thing, and then you also get to see their logbooks, which is sometimes scary.
You have the right to your opinion, and I have the right to tell you how Fu***** stupid it is.
Davelepka - "This isn't an x-box, or a Chevy truck forum"
Whatever you do, don't listen to ChrisD.

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As long as you don't ask someone when they are obviously busy, I bet you won't get people who will turn you down. The great thing about skydiving is that we all remember being in your shoes. It's fine to ask, really! What's the worst that will happen? They'll say no. Big deal, you can survive that.

I always like to add a heart or a smiley face, because I'm always honored if someone wants MY sig in their book! Well, and because I just like hearts and smiley faces. :P

She is Da Man, and you better not mess with Da Man,
because she will lay some keepdown on you faster than, well, really fast. ~Billvon

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Not to be too anal, but if you want to use the jump in the numbers required for an A,B,C, or D license, doesn't it require that the skydiving signing it witness the jump?

From the SIM:
3.1.C.2 Jumps for license and rating qualifications must be
signed by another licensed skydiver, a pilot, or a USPA
National or FAI Judge who witnessed the jump.



And while I am being anal, the way it is written a pilot, USPA National or FAI Judge can self-witness. It isn't likely that a Judge doesn't already have a 'D' license, but skydivers who are also pilots might not have 500 jumps yet.


For the same reason I jump off a perfectly good diving board.

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I'm always happy to sign a logbook if someone asks me, and never been refused when I ask. Not all my log entries are signed but most of my jumps are logged. My comments are getting increasingly epic as I go forward. My log book is just a spiral bound notebook in which I hand-write the fields every time I do a log entry. Depending on how the jump went, my remarks could take up half a page. I leave the page backs blank in case I want to write more stuff in there.

I also try to get the tail numbers of planes I jump from and write them in the front of my book. I figure I might want that information later. Someone here mentioned that last time a logging discussion came up.

Lately I've been considering what would happen if my log book went missing. That would be pretty bad. I'll probably end up buying a scanner and keeping the pages scanned on a couple of different computers, and possibly my phone. There's already a gap in my AFF logs where the cheap blue logbook they gave me had a couple pages fall out. They're only bound in there with a couple of staples and it's very easy for that to happen.
I'm trying to teach myself how to set things on fire with my mind. Hey... is it hot in here?

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I get that logbook signing parties are a popular way to appear to be legal. Pretending to see a jump is not that far away from pretending to make a jump (which I am sure some people do in their logbooks).

I have a private pilot ticket, and if you misrepresent those logbooks, you are committing a felony where the conviction carries a possible maximum sentence of 5 years’ imprisonment, a $250,000 fine, and 3 years of supervised release.

In the world of skydiving, there is certainly no jail time for falsifying logs. On the contrary, people snicker and have logbook signing parties.


Done being anal.
For the same reason I jump off a perfectly good diving board.

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samblack

Hi guys,

My instructor told me to keep good logbook records and to get a signature from someone (that has an A license) after every single jump. Here's the thing. I'm new to the dropzone (and to skydiving!) so aside from bugging the instructors every jump (who may or may not have jumped on the last run) I don't have anyone to ask. Oh... and I'm shy :$

Is there any etiquette to asking folks for a signature? I don't want to annoy people or purpetrate a social fopaux or anything.

Thanks!
Justin



Jumpers don't mind signing off on logbooks just because you are young in the sport. Just ask - and have a pen ready too.

Most people typically ask in batch form when they finish jumping for the day. Makes it quicker to scratch our 5 or 6 at once.
Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

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Your not being anal at all. 35 years ago my brother, myself and 2 of my friends from the Marines entered a 4 way Comp at Ellington Conn. You had to have a C license or at least 100 jumps. my friend Tom had 93, so we penned in another 10.
I had the most experience at 600 jumps so I was the team Capt. It was wicked windy, I was spotting, took it really long. Got out, dive went ok, at break off I saw we were still really far out so I opened as soon as I could. I was the high guy and the only one to make it back to the DZ. We were all ok except for Tom, he landed behind a barn and slammed in breaking his back. To this day he is mostly paralyzed from the waist down. He never blamed me, but I sure did. Would another 10 jumps have changed things? I don't know. But I do know I would give anything for a second chance. And to show that God has a sense of humor, our team name was "Special Olympics"

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Sorry for the burden you carried. With 39 years and 4300 jumps, you know better than I that sometimes bad things happen to good people in skydiving.
I doubt many experienced skydivers would think the difference between 93 and 100 jumps would cause any different outcome.
For the same reason I jump off a perfectly good diving board.

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You guys are really awesome and I appreciate the replies/info. This forum definitely needs a "like" button ;)

I guess the reason why I'm a little trepidatious is because I'm from Massachusetts where people tend to be a little more gruff than nice. I also heard DeLand (where I'm doing most of my jumping) can be a little cliquey.

Hopefully I can get some of you guys to sign my logbook one day! :ph34r:

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samblack

You guys are really awesome and I appreciate the replies/info. This forum definitely needs a "like" button ;)

I guess the reason why I'm a little trepidatious is because I'm from Massachusetts where people tend to be a little more gruff than nice. I also heard DeLand (where I'm doing most of my jumping) can be a little cliquey.

Hopefully I can get some of you guys to sign my logbook one day! :ph34r:



Thank God we're gruff I've grown addicted to the abuse.:P

I can assure you that at any DZ I've jumped in New England, which is all of them that allow fun jumpers, and one that doesn't, I've never had even one second of hesitation from anyone when I've asked for a signature.

And we know who Sam Black Church is and can remember them playing in places long since bulldozed.B|

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jumpsalot-2

After your jump day, bust out an ice cold twelve pack of Sierra Nevada Pale Ale, then politely ask if anyone can sign a page or two in your log book .... :S



Beer WILL make you a lot of friends.

I can't wait to be able to sign someone else's logbook. I have not been to the point of having to get mine signed (still AFF) but it seems like a good way to make friends.
You are not the contents of your wallet.

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topdocker

Most jumpers are more than happy to sign a logbook, so don't be afraid to ask. I find A and B license jumpers get the biggest kick out of doing it!

Also, try and ask people that were on the load with you or saw you actually jump. I hate having to take someone's word for it! It's not that I don't believe you, it's just that I don't believe anyone!;)

top




'Back in the day' There was a guy at my home DZ - D288 - that would sign the jump he witnessed, and also sign the last jump in your logbook ...

" better stick around the sport and make that one legal or you're gonna get me in trouble" B|










~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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airtwardo

***Most jumpers are more than happy to sign a logbook, so don't be afraid to ask. I find A and B license jumpers get the biggest kick out of doing it!

Also, try and ask people that were on the load with you or saw you actually jump. I hate having to take someone's word for it! It's not that I don't believe you, it's just that I don't believe anyone!;)

top




'Back in the day' There was a guy at my home DZ - D288 - that would sign the jump he witnessed, and also sign the last jump in your logbook ...

" better stick around the sport and make that one legal or you're gonna get me in trouble" B|

I remember a couple of guys that would do that. One would sign "D.B. Cooper".

Sparky
My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

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DiverMike

Not to be too anal, but if you want to use the jump in the numbers required for an A,B,C, or D license, doesn't it require that the skydiving signing it witness the jump?

From the SIM:
3.1.C.2 Jumps for license and rating qualifications must be
signed by another licensed skydiver, a pilot, or a USPA
National or FAI Judge who witnessed the jump.



You are a pilot, think of this being worded like the FARs. (For instance 14 CFR 61.51)

Quote

Logging pilot-in-command flight time.
(1) A recreational, private, or commercial pilot may log pilot-in- command time only for that flight time during which that person --

(i) Is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated;
(ii) Is the sole occupant of the aircraft; or
(iii) Except for a recreational pilot, is acting as pilot in command of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted.



Apply that logic and wording to the USPA wording.

Jumps for license and rating qualifications must be signed by:
(i) another licensed skydiver;
(ii) a pilot; or
(iii) a USPA National; or
(iiii) a FAI Judge who witnessed the jump.
"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

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You are arguing my point for me. The wording should be:

Jumps for license and rating qualifications must be signed by:
(i) a licensed skydiver; or
(ii) a pilot; or
(iii) a USPA National; or a FAI Judge who witnessed the jump.

With the additional restriction:
(iv) Under no case should the witness be the skydiver who performed the jump.


The way it is worded now, the only restriction is on the licensed skydiver witness.
For the same reason I jump off a perfectly good diving board.

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Or it could say:

3.1.C.2 Jumps for license and rating qualifications must be
signed by another licensed skydiver, pilot, or USPA
National or FAI Judge who witnessed the jump.

But by saying
3.1.C.2 Jumps for license and rating qualifications must be
signed by another licensed skydiver, a pilot, or a USPA National or FAI Judge who witnessed the jump.

the "a" before pilot trumps the "another" before skydiver. "a" indicates any, and does not mean the same as "another".
I don't know if this was intentional indicating that pilots and judges are more trustworthy than your run of the mill skydiver, but that is the result of the regulation.

If the USPA did not want to allow pilots and judges to self-witness, all they would have to do is take the "a" out before the other witness types, or subtitute it with the word "another". It is grammatically incorrect to interpret it any other way.

I suspect it is a grammar error, but who am I to judge their intent.
For the same reason I jump off a perfectly good diving board.

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I log each jump as I do it (or after the debrief if it was a coached jump) and then get my log signed at the end of the day by the jump master from one of my loads or by the instructor who was coaching me. AFF and coached jumps should be signed off by your instructor in any case.

Not too much of an issue at the moment as I'm still very new to jumping and the largest number of jumps I've done in a day was 6 and that was very exceptional, usually I'm lucky to get in 2 or 3!

And yes, I do get a buzz when someone asks me to sign their logbook B| though it doesn't happen often as most of the jumpers I know are jumping in groups so they sign each other's log books.

A mind once stretched by a new idea never regains its original dimensions - Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr

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DiverMike

Or it could say:

3.1.C.2 Jumps for license and rating qualifications must be
signed by another licensed skydiver, pilot, or USPA
National or FAI Judge who witnessed the jump.

But by saying
3.1.C.2 Jumps for license and rating qualifications must be
signed by another licensed skydiver, a pilot, or a USPA National or FAI Judge who witnessed the jump.

the "a" before pilot trumps the "another" before skydiver. "a" indicates any, and does not mean the same as "another".
I don't know if this was intentional indicating that pilots and judges are more trustworthy than your run of the mill skydiver, but that is the result of the regulation.

If the USPA did not want to allow pilots and judges to self-witness, all they would have to do is take the "a" out before the other witness types, or subtitute it with the word "another". It is grammatically incorrect to interpret it any other way.

I suspect it is a grammar error, but who am I to judge their intent.



Disagree. The grammar could be tighter, but the phrase "who witnessed the jump" modifies the entire phrase "another licensed skydiver, a pilot, or a USPA National or FAI Judge". Contextually, viewed as a whole, and since obviously a skydiver always witnesses his own jump, it is clear that (a) neither the hypothetical signing pilot nor the hypothetical signing judge are to be the same jumper whose jump is being signed-off on - in other words, jumpers who also happen to be pilots or judges may not sign-off on their own skydives. It is also clear that (b) technically, anyone who signs off on another jumper's jump should have witnessed the jump. Whether "witnessed" means to have actually watched the jumper's jump, or to have simply been present at the DZ while the jump took place, is another issue that is left undefined by the regulation.

I am guided, in part, by one of the most basic principles of statutory construction: do not interpret an imprecision or ambiguity of language or grammar in a written rule (law, regulation, etc.) such that it produces an absurd result. To prohibit jumpers from signing-off on their own jumps, but yet carve out a narrow exception for jumpers who just happen to have pilot's licenses or serve as a national or FAI judge and allow only that sub-set to sign-off on their own jumps, would be an absurd result.

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Yea- I am probably being silly and will defer to a lawyer's opinion rather than a grammarian. Still, I wouldn't call the result totally absurd. Both groups are arguably less likely to give false witness than your run of the mill skydiver and could be conceivably given more lattitude to self witness.

I would point out that in other areas the USPA has specifically stated there are certain requirements that cannot be selfwitnessed. (10 landings for a PRO Rating if you are an S&TA , I/E or USPA board member for example) in unambiguous language: "You may not certify yourself."

And although it does not indicate you must be an eyewitness to the jump, it is a little absurd to think a hearsay witness is acceptable (but not as absurd as my pilot/judge scenario).
For the same reason I jump off a perfectly good diving board.

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In the overall scheme ~ the only thing that really matters is that you made the jump.

Nobody is going to call up the guy who signed your logbook on November 12th 2010, to verify you did a 4 way at Elsinore....:D

You keep track of your jumps to among other things - show proficiency regarding license levels & to qualify for an 'award' that really only means something to 'you' personally.

Lots of those 'awards' are of questionable integrity as I've lost count of the people I know claiming them - with no possible way of having actually earned them.

So don't get your panites all in a twist regarding the who, when & why signatures appear in your personal logs.

I can't tell ya how many of MY jumps have been signed off at the DZ by 'James Bond' - 'D.B. Cooper' - 'Mickey Mouse' - How do ya like it 'Johnny Utah'...on & on.

Being an airshow performer - my logbook doubles as an autograph book - Chuck Yeager, Bob Hoover, Scott Crossfield, Pappy Boyington AND the Zero pilot who shot him down are just a few...USPA doesn't seem to care - they even give some wiggle room on who awards you things - despite what the Reg book says! ;)

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1756912#1756912











~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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