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Phil1111

What is next for Afghanistan?

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10 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

Pull your horns in, Ken, and try to remember the security benefit Canada gains at no cost owing to our face forward international policies. Yes, we fucked up. That said every nation who gains benefit from the US military should join us in apology.

The US military has a long history of fucking up and trying to hide it.

Local to me, quite a while ago, a kid in Para Rescue school was drowned by the instructors, who then covered it up. It took a congress critter investigating it to uncover the fact that it was basically involuntary manslaughter. Several instructors were tried.

The explosion in the turret in the USS Iowa was caused by overcharging the propellant. It was a practice that was stupid dangerous, but was known and condoned by the command structure. The Navy tried to blame it on a seaman who had a relationship with another one, and tried to make it a 'homosexual relationship gone bad to suicide". 

https://www.wearethemighty.com/articles/the-navys-investigation-of-the-uss-iowa-turret-explosion-was-seriously-bungled/

 

And don't forget about the death of Pat Tillman. 

30 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

We are talking about something called a “Hellfire Missile”. Which has a primary function as a machine designed to kill people. As opposed to a class 8 Freightliner truck, which is not primarily designed to kill and in fact has several features incorporated to help lessen its chance of killing. Why do you suppose the called it Hellfire? Probably not the best name for a kitten.

 

I still love America despite the aggression.

On a slightly related note, a friend jumps a 170 Diablo.


He's had 2 cutaways from spinning linetwists on opening.

I often joke that "they call it the 'Diablo'. That means 'Devil'. They don't call it the 'Cute and Fuzzy Bunny'. There's a reason for that."

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2 minutes ago, wolfriverjoe said:

On a slightly related note, a friend jumps a 170 Diablo.


He's had 2 cutaways from spinning linetwists on opening.

I often joke that "they call it the 'Diablo'. That means 'Devil'. They don't call it the 'Cute and Fuzzy Bunny'. There's a reason for that."

I own a 170 Diablo myself. I've only jumped it a few times and never had to cut it away. It behaves a little like my 170 Stiletto which has been my main ride for over 20 years. And yes, new jumpers are afraid of it as soon as they hear the name.

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1 minute ago, gowlerk said:

I own a 170 Diablo myself. I've only jumped it a few times and never had to cut it away. It behaves a little like my 170 Stiletto which has been my main ride for over 20 years. And yes, new jumpers are afraid of it as soon as they hear the name.

He's had it for a fairly long time and has a lot of jumps on it.

It's fairly sensitive to body position on opening.
Once it twists up and starts spinning, it's not usually fixable.

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6 hours ago, kallend said:

There really isn't any justification for the USA to spend more on killing machines than the next 10 nations combined, when most of them are our allies anyway. 

Eisenhower was right.

Absolutely. And I think it's a fair argument that the reason our allies get by spending so little is owing to our spending way too much. That we did to ourselves, no doubt about it.

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3 hours ago, wolfriverjoe said:

The US military has a long history of fucking up and trying to hide it.

Local to me, quite a while ago, a kid in Para Rescue school was drowned by the instructors, who then covered it up. It took a congress critter investigating it to uncover the fact that it was basically involuntary manslaughter. Several instructors were tried.

The explosion in the turret in the USS Iowa was caused by overcharging the propellant. It was a practice that was stupid dangerous, but was known and condoned by the command structure. The Navy tried to blame it on a seaman who had a relationship with another one, and tried to make it a 'homosexual relationship gone bad to suicide". 

https://www.wearethemighty.com/articles/the-navys-investigation-of-the-uss-iowa-turret-explosion-was-seriously-bungled/

 

And don't forget about the death of Pat Tillman. 

On a slightly related note, a friend jumps a 170 Diablo.


He's had 2 cutaways from spinning linetwists on opening.

I often joke that "they call it the 'Diablo'. That means 'Devil'. They don't call it the 'Cute and Fuzzy Bunny'. There's a reason for that."

Should have guessed I'd get run over by the truck drivers. Sheesh, I can be dumb.

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4 hours ago, gowlerk said:

We are talking about something called a “Hellfire Missile”. Which has a primary function as a machine designed to kill people. As opposed to a class 8 Freightliner truck, which is not primarily designed to kill and in fact has several features incorporated to help lessen its chance of killing. Why do you suppose the called it Hellfire? Probably not the best name for a kitten.

 

I still love America despite the aggression.

Hi Ken,

Re:  Freightliner truck

Do you drive one?  I worked there, part-time back in the 60's, while in college.  I worked in the Advance Design Test Lab. Had a lot of fun testing all kinds of stuff.

One on the best jobs I have ever had.  Back then, they were a great place to work; I do not know about today as they are now owned by Daimler.

Jerry Baumchen

PS)  While I was there, we built the very first dual-sleeper cab.

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1 hour ago, JerryBaumchen said:

Hi Ken,

Re:  Freightliner truck

Do you drive one?  I worked there, part-time back in the 60's, while in college.  I worked in the Advance Design Test Lab. Had a lot of fun testing all kinds of stuff.

One on the best jobs I have ever had.  Back then, they were a great place to work; I do not know about today as they are now owned by Daimler.

Jerry Baumchen

PS)  While I was there, we built the very first dual-sleeper cab.

They used to be pretty shoddy bottom of the barrel trucks. They are far better now. I drive a Freightliner Cascadia. Probably the most common truck of it’s class these days. Highly favoured by the big trucking companies, not so much by owner operators.

Edited by gowlerk

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Just a bit of trivia, but Rollin White patented the drilled through revolver cylinder, which allowed the use of breechloading cartridges, when he worked for Smith and Wesson in the 1840s.

The $100,000 he received for the patent was absorbed, per the contract, in litigation against infringement, and S&W kept the proceeds from selling the offending revolvers.

Not deterred, White went on to found the company that somewhat later offered the Freightliner.

 

BSBD,

Winsor

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47 minutes ago, winsor said:

My preference, dated though it may be, is a cabover with a four and a quarter Cat, a Jake Brake and a 9513 Road Ranger. Handles the hills nicely.

I've driven that drive train through a lot British Columbia mountain roads, but in a conventional cab. It can be a lot of fun, especially if you're lightly loaded.

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On 9/25/2021 at 5:11 AM, JoeWeber said:

Come on, man, with the killing machine trope. By your expansive use your truck is a killing machine. We fucked up.13 US soldiers and oner 100 afghanis were killed at a checkpoint by homicide bombers. The situation was anything but controlled and the clock was ticking. Now, it's over and you are still home safe and sound and able to bark about how the US is____________________, fill in the blank. We aren't ogres and we do try to do our best. Really.

Not really. No organisation as a whole tries to do their best when there is no incentive to doing better and no accountability for doing worse.

A good man and most of his family were killed for the sole reason that he was seen loading water drums into his truck. The information on who he was and what he was doing was freely available, they just didn't bother checking it. Solid intel that he was doing anything nefarious was non-existent, but they blew him up anyway. Even by the genuinely fucked up standards of US police accountabiity, that would not be acceptable in America so why is it acceptable Afghanistan?

In my opinion the most senior US army officers directly responsible for ordering that drone strike should be tried for murder and sentenced to life in prison, then maybe there'd be some reason for the military to do it's best. It's not much, but it's a start.

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(edited)
34 minutes ago, jakee said:

Not really. No organisation as a whole tries to do their best when there is no incentive to doing better and no accountability for doing worse.

A good man and most of his family were killed for the sole reason that he was seen loading water drums into his truck. The information on who he was and what he was doing was freely available, they just didn't bother checking it. Solid intel that he was doing anything nefarious was non-existent, but they blew him up anyway. Even by the genuinely fucked up standards of US police accountabiity, that would not be acceptable in America so why is it acceptable Afghanistan?

 

It brings to mind the bullshit excuses that Colin Powell was forced to give to justify the invasion of Iraq.

Another example of deciding what it is you want to do, then looking for justification no matter what the reality of the situation is

Edited by gowlerk

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1 hour ago, gowlerk said:

It brings to mind the bullshit excuses that Colin Powell was forced to give to justify the invasion of Iraq.

Another example of deciding what it is you want to do, then looking for justification no matter what the reality of the situation is

I think he wasn't forced but chose to believe the intel he wanted to believe. Great man, no doubt, and very smart, too. But that's no guarantee against making a fool of yourself. I'm looking at you, BillVon.

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2 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

I think he wasn't forced but chose to believe the intel he wanted to believe. Great man, no doubt, and very smart, too. But that's no guarantee against making a fool of yourself. I'm looking at you, BillVon.

I was dismayed by Powell's support for the invasion of Iraq, since I did and do find him very impressive otherwise.

Nobody bats a thousand.

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On 9/24/2021 at 12:28 PM, gowlerk said:

Of course not, they apologized. After journalists exposed the lies they had been telling about it. The only reason that happened is that it was actually in Kabul. Most of the "terrorist killing" drone strikes happen in remote places where no one can check. They are done by trigger happy men reporting to a trigger happy command sitting in an office on the other side of the world. Mistakes are sad, but what the hell, you have to break eggs to make an omelet right? No wonder the Afghan tribal people have no respect for cowards who fight with technology instead of on the field. Who are the terrorists now? Who is engaging in asymmetrical warfare now? I wonder if that officer had hot coffee at hand while he was deciding if he had enough information to make the decision to kill?

While drone strikes may not have the same checks that a boot on the ground does. Your entire premise is entirely wrong. Bombing by air will always risk the lives of unintended civilians. Be it Israel, the US, Canada or any other country. Attack by air is not as exact as ground combat.

One advantage of drone strikes is that the drone typically loiters for lengthy periods of time to gather information prior to a strike.

What I'll concede is the idea that drone strikes can lead to careless strikes if checks and double-checks are not employed. IMO the US uses care.

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3 hours ago, gowlerk said:

It brings to mind the bullshit excuses that Colin Powell was forced to give to justify the invasion of Iraq.

Another example of deciding what it is you want to do, then looking for justification no matter what the reality of the situation is

Is the CIA not to blame for that?

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4 hours ago, jakee said:

Not really. No organisation as a whole tries to do their best when there is no incentive to doing better and no accountability for doing worse.

A good man and most of his family were killed for the sole reason that he was seen loading water drums into his truck. The information on who he was and what he was doing was freely available, they just didn't bother checking it. Solid intel that he was doing anything nefarious was non-existent, but they blew him up anyway. Even by the genuinely fucked up standards of US police accountabiity, that would not be acceptable in America so why is it acceptable Afghanistan?

In my opinion the most senior US army officers directly responsible for ordering that drone strike should be tried for murder and sentenced to life in prison, then maybe there'd be some reason for the military to do it's best. It's not much, but it's a start.

I don't think the US has street address by street occupant. Real time intelligence for Kabul or anywhere else in Afghanistan.

Having said that, lies by spokesman for the US military seem to have a knack for lying, coverup and misinformation

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28 minutes ago, Phil1111 said:

While drone strikes may not have the same checks that a boot on the ground does. Your entire premise is entirely wrong. Bombing by air will always risk the lives of unintended civilians. Be it Israel, the US, Canada or any other country. Attack by air is not as exact as ground combat.

One advantage of drone strikes is that the drone typically loiters for lengthy periods of time to gather information prior to a strike.

What I'll concede is the idea that drone strikes can lead to careless strikes if checks and double-checks are not employed. IMO the US uses care.

Hi Phil,

Re:  Bombing by air will always risk the lives of unintended civilians.

I keep having to post this:  2/3's of the deaths from D-Day to the liberation of Paris, were French civilians.

IMO no one wants this; however, it is a cost of war.

Jerry Baumchen

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(edited)
57 minutes ago, Phil1111 said:

While drone strikes may not have the same checks that a boot on the ground does. Your entire premise is entirely wrong. Bombing by air will always risk the lives of unintended civilians. Be it Israel, the US, Canada or any other country. Attack by air is not as exact as ground combat.

One advantage of drone strikes is that the drone typically loiters for lengthy periods of time to gather information prior to a strike.

What I'll concede is the idea that drone strikes can lead to careless strikes if checks and double-checks are not employed. IMO the US uses care.

Yes of course I am wrong. Killing people with drones is a mark of bravery. Soon the US military will be issuing purple hearts because of the damage suffered in PTSD.

 

 

 

Edited by gowlerk

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1 hour ago, Phil1111 said:

What I'll concede is the idea that drone strikes can lead to careless strikes if checks and double-checks are not employed. IMO the US uses care.

Care? My god, how many tens of thousands of more civilians would be dead if they didn't care?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualties_from_U.S._drone_strikes

 

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59 minutes ago, Phil1111 said:

I don't think the US has street address by street occupant. Real time intelligence for Kabul or anywhere else in Afghanistan.

Excellent point. So without useful real time intelligence why did they decide to murder an aid worker and his children?

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43 minutes ago, JerryBaumchen said:

Hi Phil,

Re:  Bombing by air will always risk the lives of unintended civilians.

I keep having to post this:  2/3's of the deaths from D-Day to the liberation of Paris, were French civilians.

IMO no one wants this; however, it is a cost of war.

Of course the Nazis were the occupying force in that scenario. Is it the parallel you want to draw?

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