2way for non licensed skydivers

[npole 1]

While we all agree that the common sense would lead to say: no, two students that have just completed their AFF course aren't going to jump together (followed by a number of reason of why they shouldn't), I am curious if there's a rule enforcing this or if it's left to the drop zone responsibility.

Does anyone know if there's an official/legal document that states the limits of a student in various countries (I'm particular interested in EU countries)?
In example I've found the rules enforced here in Spain and Italy that a student has to comply to jump: wearing a helmet, suit that cover legs and arms, altimeter, a reserve that doesn't exceed 6m/s in vertical speed, but there's no mention if a non licensed skydiver could jump with a licensed skydiver, or another non licensed skydiver, or if he/she can jump only with an instructor or such.

PS: I'm licensed, I'm just curious because I always heard about this "rule" but despite the common sense (mentioned above, that I agree with), I never found an official document mentioning this (at least not here...).

[MickPatch 44]

Here in the UK the only people who can jumpnwith non licensed skydivers arw AFFI's

[JoeWeber 2,294]

11 hours ago, npole said:

While we all agree that the common sense would lead to say: no, two students that have just completed their AFF course aren't going to jump together (followed by a number of reason of why they shouldn't), I am curious if there's a rule enforcing this or if it's left to the drop zone responsibility.

Does anyone know if there's an official/legal document that states the limits of a student in various countries (I'm particular interested in EU countries)?
In example I've found the rules enforced here in Spain and Italy that a student has to comply to jump: wearing a helmet, suit that cover legs and arms, altimeter, a reserve that doesn't exceed 6m/s in vertical speed, but there's no mention if a non licensed skydiver could jump with a licensed skydiver, or another non licensed skydiver, or if he/she can jump only with an instructor or such.

PS: I'm licensed, I'm just curious because I always heard about this "rule" but despite the common sense (mentioned above, that I agree with), I never found an official document mentioning this (at least not here...).

Welcome to the worldwide unregulated shit show that is Skydiving. At the end of the day it all comes down to the Dropzone Operator. There are many unenforceable pieces of paper they can point to if they want safety or ignore if they don't care. If you care, find a DZO that does care or retrain the one you have.  

[npole 1]

14 hours ago, MickPatch said:

Here in the UK the only people who can jumpnwith non licensed skydivers arw AFFI's

That's what "they" say (that is similar to what's said here...), but my question was more: did you ever read a such rule on a piece of paper enforced by the CAA or any other accredited authority, or it's just a decision taken by (most) drop zones due to their responsibilities?

[MickPatch 44]

1 hour ago, npole said:

That's what "they" say (that is similar to what's said here...), but my question was more: did you ever read a such rule on a piece of paper enforced by the CAA or any other accredited authority, or it's just a decision taken by (most) drop zones due to their responsibilities?

5.10. General 
 
5.10.1. Student Skydivers cannot progress more than one level per descent.
 
5.10.2. Levels 1-3 require 2 AFF Instructors and Levels 4-8 require 1 AFF Instructor.
 
5.10.3. AFF graduates may not be awarded Category 8 until a minimum of 10 
consolidation jumps have been completed. These consolidation jumps may be 
started after the successful completion of Level 7. The AFF Student must be 
dispatched and supervised by at least a CSBI or AFFBI. Those dispatching 
instructors must have received a brief to dispatch AFF Students by at least an 
AFFI or be an AFFI (logbook endorsement).
5.10.4. Non AFFIs will only follow out consolidation students after successful 
completion of their Level 8

 

It is in the operations manual

[npole 1]

40 minutes ago, MickPatch said:

5.10. General 
 
5.10.1. Student Skydivers cannot progress more than one level per descent.
 
5.10.2. Levels 1-3 require 2 AFF Instructors and Levels 4-8 require 1 AFF Instructor.
 
5.10.3. AFF graduates may not be awarded Category 8 until a minimum of 10 
consolidation jumps have been completed. These consolidation jumps may be 
started after the successful completion of Level 7. The AFF Student must be 
dispatched and supervised by at least a CSBI or AFFBI. Those dispatching 
instructors must have received a brief to dispatch AFF Students by at least an 
AFFI or be an AFFI (logbook endorsement).
5.10.4. Non AFFIs will only follow out consolidation students after successful 
completion of their Level 8

 

It is in the operations manual

Am I reading it wrong or it doesn't say that a non licensed skydiver cannot jump with a licensed skydiver or even a non licensed skydiver after "Level 8"? Or the "Level 8" is the equivalent of USPA B?

There might be also some confusion about the terminology, here in example when you complete the AFF course, you're a "non licensed skydiver" (no matter how many jump you have), until you do an exam with the civil aviation authority. Then you will acquire a proper skydiving license (it's pretty like the USPA B), until then you're considered a "student". We have only "2 steps".

[MickPatch 44]

Here in the UK you do the 8 levels of AFF and 10 consolidation jumps, all these are done under the watchful eye of AFFI's. 

Once you have passed all these (and a written exam) you are then "A license". 

In the UK Relative Work (Formation Skydiving) is a qualification you have to acheive following gaining your license before you can jump with other people. Only a qualified coach can "teach".

So an unlicensed skydiver can only jump with AFFI, a new licensed skydiver can only jump with a "coach" until FS1 qualified.

The exception to the last bit is that a C licensed skydiver, who is FS1 qualified and has been approved so to do by the DZ CI, may jump with a non FS1 qualified skydiver but they must not coach.

This exception enables new skydivers to get some nice pics for their facebook profiles I suppose.

These rules are enforced at all DZs as a CI who fails to would be sanctioned.

[sfzombie13 307]

so to answer op, yes, it is written in the operations manual in the uk, i just read it.  it's also in the uspa manual, the sim.  it says that after a student is on solo status, they can't jump with anyone who isn't a coach, instructor, or d license holder.

[FreedomFries 0]

Most of the European manuals/official regulation documents (maybe except for France) are largely based on USPA SIM. Most of the heavy lifting on writing the lessons learned, reports, manuals and examining incident is done by USPA, BPA (British Skydiving) and APF. They are also associations/clubs that promote the sport of skydiving with a large membership base. In Italy the organization responsible for skydiving regulation/manuals is ENAC (Italian Civil Aviation Authority), which is like FAA in the USA, making it a little out of touch from the skydiving world. They lay out some brief common sense rules for drop zones to follow and some of the discretion/interpretation is left to the drop zone operators. The official documents exist, is that they are a product of bureaucratic entities with questionable competencies in the filed of skydiving who try to fill the regulation void the best they can, if you want to be on the safe side just follow the USPA SIM.