Westerly 61 #1 Posted August 16, 2021 (edited) So we all know vaccinate mandates are in the future. We already see numerous employers and organizations requiring it. Some of their employees called them on their bluff and the employers fired them so clearly they mean business. Some entire cities require it to shop anywhere. This is all good stuff, but since we know we are all moving toward a mandate of some form for daily life, why not just save the countless people that will die between now and then and just put in a mandate right now? Mandate it at the federal level. All businesses are required to decline to provide service to anyone who is unvaccinated or is unable to show proof of a negative covid test within the last 72 hours unless the service can be provided entirely remotely. Done son. Edited August 16, 2021 by Westerly Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gowlerk 1,889 #2 August 16, 2021 Why not? Probably the strongest reason is that the US federal government has no authority to do so. Do you think a law mandating that could pass in Congress? But I do agree that if it could be done it would be a good thing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Westerly 61 #3 August 16, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, gowlerk said: Why not? Probably the strongest reason is that the US federal government has no authority to do so. Do you think a law mandating that could pass in Congress? But I do agree that if it could be done it would be a good thing. Well it's being done at the city level. Multiple cities have done so. So if it's constitutional at the city level, I dont know why it would be any less constitutional at the federal level. Also, no one is technically being forced to get a vaccine. It's get vaccinated OR weekly testing, and I dont see how weekly testing to use services would be illegal as several states have already had similar mandates relating testing requirements for specific purposes. Also, it doesent need to pass congress. The president can order it by executive action. Even if it gets struck down, at least it will move us in the correct direction and it will give more confidence to other states, employers and agencies to enact their own mandates. Edited August 16, 2021 by Westerly Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,611 #4 August 16, 2021 Meanwhile in Texas, mask mandates struck down: https://www.texastribune.org/2021/08/15/texas-coronavirus-supreme-court-school-mask-mandate/ Stupid is as stupid does. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CygnusX-1 42 #5 August 16, 2021 The reason why we should not enact that type of requirement now is that if we did there would be too many science denying stupid people alive next year. My google search resulted in a stat that has FL having 1,000 deaths/week. If we stopped it now that would lead to an estimated 52,000 more people in this state which should be dead! It is too crowded here anyway and we don't need those type of people voting in our elections. Covid is a good thing and we here are lucky to have a governor who will protect us from tyranny such as mask & vaccine mandates so that the stupid can die. This is a good thing and we should not be playing God by preventing the almighty from calling his faithful home. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JerryBaumchen 1,041 #6 August 16, 2021 11 hours ago, Westerly said: Well it's being done at the city level. Multiple cities have done so. So if it's constitutional at the city level, I dont know why it would be any less constitutional at the federal level. Also, no one is technically being forced to get a vaccine. It's get vaccinated OR weekly testing, and I dont see how weekly testing to use services would be illegal as several states have already had similar mandates relating testing requirements for specific purposes. Also, it doesent need to pass congress. The president can order it by executive action. Even if it gets struck down, at least it will move us in the correct direction and it will give more confidence to other states, employers and agencies to enact their own mandates. Hi Westerly, Re: So if it's constitutional at the city level, I dont know why it would be any less constitutional at the federal level. That says it all as regards you. Jerry Baumchen 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Westerly 61 #7 August 16, 2021 (edited) 3 hours ago, CygnusX-1 said: The reason why we should not enact that type of requirement now is that if we did there would be too many science denying stupid people alive next year. My google search resulted in a stat that has FL having 1,000 deaths/week. If we stopped it now that would lead to an estimated 52,000 more people in this state which should be dead! It is too crowded here anyway and we don't need those type of people voting in our elections. Covid is a good thing and we here are lucky to have a governor who will protect us from tyranny such as mask & vaccine mandates so that the stupid can die. This is a good thing and we should not be playing God by preventing the almighty from calling his faithful home. Well the problem is it's not only the antivaxxers who are doing the dying. Vaccinated people are dying too because hospital resources are overleveraged so people with other medical problems are unable to get the care they need because those resources are being sucked up by people infected with Covid. For example, a friend got into a car accident and broke his leg. He went to the ER and they said he needs surgery otherwise he'll never walk right again. But they also said they cant schedule him for surgery anytime soon because Covid people are needing those resources right now. So he's kind of screwed if he cant find an OR with an opening. That's the real issue here. Edited August 16, 2021 by Westerly Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,101 #8 August 16, 2021 7 minutes ago, Westerly said: Well the problem is it's not only the antivaxxers who are doing the dying. Vaccinated people are dying too because hospital resources are overleveraged so people with other medical problems are unable to get the care they need because those resources are being sucked up by people infected with Covid. For example, a friend got into a car accident and broke his leg. He went to the ER and they said he needs surgery otherwise he'll never walk right again. But they also said they cant schedule him for surgery anytime soon because Covid people are needing those resources right now. So he's kind of screwed if he cant find an OR with an opening. That's the real issue here. The argument in favour of the American health care system has generally been that it provides better care and is more available than "socialized" health care systems like for instance in Canada. That you can have two of the following three: Availability, Quality of Care, Cost. Starting to look like that argument isn't really that valid. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Westerly 61 #9 August 16, 2021 (edited) 4 hours ago, SkyDekker said: The argument in favour of the American health care system has generally been that it provides better care and is more available than "socialized" health care systems like for instance in Canada. That you can have two of the following three: Availability, Quality of Care, Cost. Starting to look like that argument isn't really that valid. Maybe pre covid, but the availability is long gone now. I work in the cardiology lab and current wait time to see a cardiologist is about 2 months, and that's if you can get in at all. More than half of our cardiologists arnt even accepting new patients at all. It's like that in all the departments right now. I mean, yea when the care is super expensive of course availability is better because you're pricing patients out of the market. If we charged $100,000 for an office appointment, you could probably get a same-day appointment with any doctor you wanted because 99% of their patients wouldn't be patients anymore. Edited August 17, 2021 by Westerly Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
murps2000 86 #10 August 17, 2021 3 hours ago, Westerly said: Maybe pre covid, but the availability is long gone now. I work in the cardiology lab and current wait time to see a cardiologist are about 2 months, and that's if you can get in at all. More than half of our cardiologists arnt even accepting new patients at all. It's like that in all the departments right now. I mean, yea when the care is super expensive of course availability is better because you're pricing patients out of the market. If we charged $100,000 for an office appointment, you could probably get a same-day appointment with any doctor you wanted because 99% of their patients wouldn't be patients anymore. Reminds me of Pete Swan’s business card: Speed, Quality, Price. Pick any two. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Westerly 61 #11 August 17, 2021 1 hour ago, murps2000 said: Reminds me of Pete Swan’s business card: Speed, Quality, Price. Pick any two. Except nowadays it's more like pick zero. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wolfriverjoe 1,329 #12 August 17, 2021 Just out of curiosity, how would you propose enforcing this? You're the one who pointed out how easy it would be to fake a vax card. And that those who are dead set against being vaccinated would go to great lengths to circumvent the rules. How has that changed? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,611 #13 August 17, 2021 26 minutes ago, wolfriverjoe said: Just out of curiosity, how would you propose enforcing this? You're the one who pointed out how easy it would be to fake a vax card. And that those who are dead set against being vaccinated would go to great lengths to circumvent the rules. How has that changed? At least in Illinois the vaccinators inform the state, which keeps a database. My own primary care doc was able to look me up. Relying on an easily fabricated card is absurd, but the morons object to a "passport" as a violation of their rights. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ryoder 1,362 #14 August 17, 2021 (edited) 19 minutes ago, kallend said: At least in Illinois the vaccinators inform the state, which keeps a database. My own primary care doc was able to look me up. Relying on an easily fabricated card is absurd, but the morons object to a "passport" as a violation of their rights. I got my vaccinations at a Safeway supermarket a couple miles away. As well as the cheap card, they also provided a URL to a website where I can plug in name & DOB, and it provides the records of my vaccinations and a QR code. The info can also be retrieved via text message. Edited August 17, 2021 by ryoder Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
murps2000 86 #15 August 17, 2021 2 minutes ago, ryoder said: I got my vaccinations at a Safeway supermarket a couple miles away. As well as the cheap card, they also provided a URL to a website where I can plug in name & DOB, and it provides the records of my vaccinations and a QR code. The info can also be retrieved via text message. I carry a photo of my vaccine card I got from my health care provider. But the card could be easily faked. It looks like this is what new york is doing. https://covid19vaccine.health.ny.gov/excelsior-pass Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ryoder 1,362 #16 August 17, 2021 8 minutes ago, murps2000 said: I carry a photo of my vaccine card I got from my health care provider. But the card could be easily faked. It looks like this is what new york is doing. https://covid19vaccine.health.ny.gov/excelsior-pass Colorado has this website for looking up vaccination status, but it doesn't work: https://ciis.state.co.us/public/Application/PublicPortal Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gowlerk 1,889 #17 August 17, 2021 9 hours ago, wolfriverjoe said: Just out of curiosity, how would you propose enforcing this? You're the one who pointed out how easy it would be to fake a vax card. And that those who are dead set against being vaccinated would go to great lengths to circumvent the rules. How has that changed? Mandatory vaccination would never reach 100%. But it doesn’t have too. Most of the people resisting would reluctantly get the shots. Tying it to employment eligibility would probably suffice. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wolfriverjoe 1,329 #18 August 17, 2021 1 hour ago, gowlerk said: Mandatory vaccination would never reach 100%. But it doesn’t have too. Most of the people resisting would reluctantly get the shots. Tying it to employment eligibility would probably suffice. Very true. While the numbers vary, depending on who you listen to and which variant, somewhere in the 80% range will be adequate. And I agree that employer mandate is probably going to be the best option. However, there is a growing market for fake vaccine documents. Many are obvious, with misspellings and such, but there are going to be idiots who try to use them... And face consequences for doing so. https://www.healthline.com/health-news/the-health-and-legal-consequences-of-using-a-fake-covid-19-vaccination-card Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gowlerk 1,889 #19 August 17, 2021 2 minutes ago, wolfriverjoe said: While the numbers vary, depending on who you listen to and which variant, somewhere in the 80% range will be adequate. In Canada we are in that range. (over 12 population with at least one dose) But no one seems satisfied with that and our federal government has just called an election. Mandatory vaccinations in all federally regulated workplaces has been proposed and will be the key election issue. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Phil1111 896 #20 August 17, 2021 7 minutes ago, gowlerk said: In Canada we are in that range. (over 12 population with at least one dose) But no one seems satisfied with that and our federal government has just called an election. Mandatory vaccinations in all federally regulated workplaces has been proposed and will be the key election issue. The Conservatives have already managed to shoot themselves because they are on the wrong side of the issue. "Liberal voters, 87 per cent say they have already been vaccinated or intend to do so. We observe comparable results for the voters of the Bloc Québécois (84 per cent) and the New Democratic Party (83 per cent)."https://www.macleans.ca/politics/ottawa/canada-where-vaccine-acceptance-isnt-political/ "This is what Canadians want. The vaccinated majority is fed up with being held back by the minority who can’t be bothered to protect themselves and everyone else against this pernicious disease. They’ve lost patience with the hesitant and the plain lazy. Yet as of Sunday O’Toole has thrown his party in with those still arguing that the unvaccinated few should effectively exercise a veto over the ability of the rest of us to get beyond COVID and return to normal life. No one, he says, should be required to be vaccinated. “We should educate people and not force them.” Perhaps O’Toole feels he must take this position to guard his right flank against a possible threat from the anti-vaxxers. Or perhaps he doesn’t want to be offside with Conservative premiers like Jason Kenney and Doug Ford who have also taken a “no mandatory vaccines” stance." Quebec supports mandatory vaccinations and 75% of Canadians do. So this one issue may seal the fate of the conservatives in this election given a fourth wave up to the September 20 election date. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gowlerk 1,889 #21 August 17, 2021 2 minutes ago, Phil1111 said: So this one issue may seal the fate of the conservatives in this election given a fourth wave up to the September 20 election date. That is what I believe will happen. I have already applied for my mail in special ballot. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wolfriverjoe 1,329 #22 August 17, 2021 3 minutes ago, gowlerk said: That is what I believe will happen. I have already applied for my mail in special ballot. Mail in ballot? But... But... But... Those are fake!!!VOTER FRAUD!!!!!! Oh... Wait a sec... You're not in the US. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CygnusX-1 42 #23 August 17, 2021 Maybe someone will come up with an idea to add a RFID microchip to the vaccine so that we can just scan people and see if they are vaccinated. That should work better than a flimsy piece of paper that could be forged. 3 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Westerly 61 #24 August 17, 2021 15 hours ago, wolfriverjoe said: Just out of curiosity, how would you propose enforcing this? You're the one who pointed out how easy it would be to fake a vax card. And that those who are dead set against being vaccinated would go to great lengths to circumvent the rules. How has that changed? Same as how cities are actually doing it: providing the card is required to shop at any business. Just like showing an ID for a credit card purchase, no CDC card no purchase. Yea it can be faked. Most people wont go to that length though. Not everyone who is unvaccinated is a hardcore anti vaxxer. Some just dont care enough either way, but if pressured they would get it. Three people I work with dont have the vaccination and when I asked them about it they just dont think it's important and they are not worried about Covid. That's why they dont have it, not because they are strictly against vaccinations. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,101 #25 August 17, 2021 4 hours ago, gowlerk said: In Canada we are in that range. (over 12 population with at least one dose) But no one seems satisfied with that and our federal government has just called an election. Mandatory vaccinations in all federally regulated workplaces has been proposed and will be the key election issue. We are at 72% for at least one dose, but that really isn't the right metric. Fully vaccinated (2 weeks after second dose) is the correct metric to be looking at. 63.7% of the Canadian population is fully vaccinated. (73.2% Canadians 12+) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites