Off landing, Slid In, What Happened?

[Xitesmai 0]

So just to preface this I just finished my 4th AFP jump level. On my last jump I had a bad spot after opening and ended up holding on the wrong corner of the airfield. So when I went in for my landing I was half running with the wind and half crabbing.

I went into half brakes, then flared when I thought I was at the right height, but I didn't really feel the canopy slow down/ lift much and there was no way that I could run it out (too fast), so I slid it in on my feet and rolled to hit my hip (sprained my foot in the process). Unfortunately I don't have video of the landing since I was a mile off, but I would like to understand the dynamics of the landing so it doesn't happen again...I understand that your answers will be speculation but any advice could help.

Why didn't I feel the lift when I flared? Did I flare too late potentially? Was it because of the wind direction?

Also, I was going to pick up a pair of goggles...Does that mean I owe beer?

Also my total weight is 175 and I was flying a 240 canopy, if that helps...

[yoink 321]

Not feeling the flare - I think there are a couple of things:

1) You said you started your flare from a half-brakes position. This will always result in a weaker flare than transitioning from full drive. You have to be ready for it.

2) Not sure about your position relative to the wind - crabbing is usually done upwind, and running is downwind, so you can't rally be doing both. If you're between those positions you're going crosswind...
but again, at your level you're probably only used to flaring into the wind and the timing is definitely different in those situations.

3) Timing - it's always possible you've still not quite nailed the overall timing of your flare. I've seen people with hundreds of jumps who still haven't quite nailed it, so don't feel bad about that!


When you might land off you need to start thinking further ahead than a typical skydive. There are a few key steps to make landing off as safe as possible:

1) Hopefully you took notice of wind direction before you got on the plane - I always oriented myself into the wind before boarding and then looked where the sun was. That way I have a good idea of wind direction if I'm landing off, but even if you don't, you want to try to find out a way of identifying it at the same time as you're picking your landing area.

2) Picking your landing area - there are a few key rules to stick with.
- Recognize the problem early and start planning alternatives. If you ever find yourself going 'I might make it back to the DZ', that's the time to start looking for outs.
- Big open spaces are your friends. Stay away from buildings and trees which may cause turbulence.
- Avoid straight lines. Straight lines don't really happen in nature, so chances are there's something manmade there. Sides of roads, fencelines, tracks etc all tend to have cables running along them or crossing them. Aim for the MIDDLE of the big open space you picked.

3) Don't leave it to late to abort to your alternate. Many, many people have been hurt trying to get back to the dz.

4) Don't fixate on getting back into wind.Use some jumps on the dz to start practicing cross and downwind landings. Turing low to get into wind because you're afraid of any other position has hurt lots of people.

5) Flare well - a good positive stroke, but PLAN TO PLF anyway. - Feet and knees together, and a roll through your thighs and shoulder.

[Doug_Davis 0]

Why were you at half brakes prior to flaring?
Think. Did any instructor tell you to do that, or did you make that one up on your own?
Now think about how being at half breaks affected your ability to flare effectively.

[dhbiker517 0]

Doug_Davis

Why were you at half brakes prior to flaring?
Think. Did any instructor tell you to do that, or did you make that one up on your own?
Now think about how being at half breaks affected your ability to flare effectively.

If landing out, yes, his instructor probably taught him this. When landing out in an unfamiliar area, with unknown obstacles and grass height, it's widely known and accepted to fly a braked approach.

[pchapman 261]

yoink

- crabbing is usually done upwind, and running is downwind,

I don't know of any precise definition, but I don't see why crabbing can't apply to flights both upwind and downwind. So if the wind is from directly behind, and you turn say 45 degrees, you are both running (heading a significant amount downwind) and crabbing (heading partially crosswind).

[ridebmxbikes 0]

Xitesmai

Why didn't I feel the lift when I flared? Did I flare too late potentially? Was it because of the wind direction?

you are flying an unpowered wing. the slower you fly your canopy the less responsive it is and the less brakes you leave yourself with. it is totally possible to get a good landing from a half braked approach but it is tricky and takes some practice.

the whole going downwind thing is the reason for so much forward speed. i personally prefer a baseball slide when i have that much speed.

Quote

Also, I was going to pick up a pair of goggles...Does that mean I owe beer?

i wouldn't think first goggles qualifies as a beer purchase. they are too insignificant. your first downwinder/off landing does though!

[dthames 0]

pchapman

*** - crabbing is usually done upwind, and running is downwind,

I don't know of any precise definition, but I don't see why crabbing can't apply to flights both upwind and downwind. So if the wind is from directly behind, and you turn say 45 degrees, you are both running (heading a significant amount downwind) and crabbing (heading partially crosswind).

Those are sometimes referred to as,
Running Crab
Holding Crab

Instructor quote, “What's weird is that you're older than my dad!”

[Xitesmai 0]

Thanks for all the help everyone..allow me to respond to a few things:

yoink

1) Hopefully you took notice of wind direction before you got on the plane - I always oriented myself into the wind before boarding and then looked where the sun was. That way I have a good idea of wind direction if I'm landing off, but even if you don't, you want to try to find out a way of identifying it at the same time as you're picking your landing area.

I did take notice of the wind direction prior to boarding...My DZ is very symmetrical and I thought I was over the correct corner, alas this was not the case...I have learned a valuable lesson to spot "the pea gravel" early, and look for other markers early after opening to ensure proper orientation...

yoink

4) Don't fixate on getting back into wind.Use some jumps on the dz to start practicing cross and downwind landings. Turing low to get into wind because you're afraid of any other position has hurt lots of people.

My position was on the airfield and I tried making small adjustments to land on the inside of the airfield area, but the crosswind kept pushing me back over another runway, so I made small adjustments to go more downwind to ensure that I cleared the asphalt...

Doug_Davis

Why were you at half brakes prior to flaring?
Think. Did any instructor tell you to do that, or did you make that one up on your own?
Now think about how being at half breaks affected your ability to flare effectively.

I guess I should have been more precise and called it a "two-staged" flare. Yes they did teach this to bleed off some of the vertical speed prior to landing. I can see how bleeding off the speed can negate some of the vertical lift from flaring.

ridebmxbikes

i wouldn't think first goggles qualifies as a beer purchase. they are too insignificant. your first downwinder/off landing does though!

I was afraid of that...I will supply preferred beer selection as due penance when I head back in a few weeks.

[yoink 321]

dthames

****** - crabbing is usually done upwind, and running is downwind,

I don't know of any precise definition, but I don't see why crabbing can't apply to flights both upwind and downwind. So if the wind is from directly behind, and you turn say 45 degrees, you are both running (heading a significant amount downwind) and crabbing (heading partially crosswind).

Those are sometimes referred to as,
Running Crab
Holding Crab

Cool. Didn't know that.

[Doug_Davis 0]

dhbiker517

If landing out, yes, his instructor probably taught him this. When landing out in an unfamiliar area, with unknown obstacles and grass height, it's widely known and accepted to fly a braked approach.

On final? Never had an instructor tell me to do that. Also given that you have no info on your profile and this is your first post in 4 years of having this account.....whose sockpuppet profile is this really?

Xitesmai

Thanks for all the help everyone..allow me to respond to a few things:


***Why were you at half brakes prior to flaring?
Think. Did any instructor tell you to do that, or did you make that one up on your own?
Now think about how being at half breaks affected your ability to flare effectively.

I guess I should have been more precise and called it a "two-staged" flare. Yes they did teach this to bleed off some of the vertical speed prior to landing. I can see how bleeding off the speed can negate some of the vertical lift from flaring.

A two-stage flare is not sitting in half-brakes on your final leg of your landing pattern. Its making a decisive movement generally done at system height off the ground to nearly arrest vertical descent so that you are now traveling horizontally across the ground, and then finishing the flare.
And as you correctly guessed, yes thats why you didnt get any real flare on landing.
You need to talk to your instructors about reviewing exactly what a two-stage flare is and how its performed.

[jclalor 12]

Xitesmai

So just to preface this I just finished my 4th AFP jump level. On my last jump I had a bad spot after opening and ended up holding on the wrong corner of the airfield. So when I went in for my landing I was half running with the wind and half crabbing.

I went into half brakes, then flared when I thought I was at the right height, but I didn't really feel the canopy slow down/ lift much and there was no way that I could run it out (too fast), so I slid it in on my feet and rolled to hit my hip (sprained my foot in the process). Unfortunately I don't have video of the landing since I was a mile off, but I would like to understand the dynamics of the landing so it doesn't happen again...I understand that your answers will be speculation but any advice could help.

Why didn't I feel the lift when I flared? Did I flare too late potentially? Was it because of the wind direction?

Also, I was going to pick up a pair of goggles...Does that mean I owe beer?

Also my total weight is 175 and I was flying a 240 canopy, if that helps...

While soliciting online advice in matters of life and death is always a sound idea, perhaps, just perhaps, Your AFFI'(s) is another option, you may be pleasantly surprised.

[excaza 1]

Doug_Davis

***

If landing out, yes, his instructor probably taught him this. When landing out in an unfamiliar area, with unknown obstacles and grass height, it's widely known and accepted to fly a braked approach.

On final? Never had an instructor tell me to do that.

Going full flight kinda defeats the purpose of a braked approach.

[hillson 0]

Doug_Davis

***

If landing out, yes, his instructor probably taught him this. When landing out in an unfamiliar area, with unknown obstacles and grass height, it's widely known and accepted to fly a braked approach.

On final? Never had an instructor tell me to do that. Also given that you have no info on your profile and this is your first post in 4 years of having this account.....whose sockpuppet profile is this really?


What the fuck is wrong with you?

At any rate, in the older SIM (as that is what I have downloaded):

5-1.F Landing Emergencies

Under the Off Field Landing portion:

Canopy control
a. A braked approach and braked turns allow for the
canopy to be flown at a slower forward speed and
descent rate but may lengthen the approach glide.
b. Altitude-conserving braked turns may be necessary
to avoid an obstacle.
c. A braked turn at a low altitude may not allow
enough time for recovery to full flight in time for
a landing flare, and a jumper may need to make a
braked landing.
d. Jumpers should practice braked turns and
approaches often to prepare for this eventuality.

Likewise, review Cat F.

[Xitesmai 0]

jclalor

While soliciting online advice in matters of life and death is always a sound idea, perhaps, just perhaps, Your AFFI'(s) is another option, you may be pleasantly surprised.

Yeah I talked to my AFFI during debrief, and the other instructor who helped on the radio when he noticed I was landing off...but they didn't see the landing so they couldn't be sure what happened. I'll also go over it again when I go back in a few weeks...

[Xitesmai 0]

Doug_Davis

A two-stage flare is not sitting in half-brakes on your final leg of your landing pattern. Its making a decisive movement generally done at system height off the ground to nearly arrest vertical descent so that you are now traveling horizontally across the ground, and then finishing the flare.
And as you correctly guessed, yes thats why you didnt get any real flare on landing.
You need to talk to your instructors about reviewing exactly what a two-stage flare is and how its performed.

I wasnt sitting in half brakes on my final leg...I was making small adjustments as to not land on a runway...I went into the Stage 1 (half brakes) about 3-4 seconds before going to full flare...But once in full flare I didnt feel any lift or change in speed...hence my question.

[Doug_Davis 0]

hillson

*** ***

If landing out, yes, his instructor probably taught him this. When landing out in an unfamiliar area, with unknown obstacles and grass height, it's widely known and accepted to fly a braked approach.

On final? Never had an instructor tell me to do that. Also given that you have no info on your profile and this is your first post in 4 years of having this account.....whose sockpuppet profile is this really?


What the fuck is wrong with you?

At any rate, in the older SIM (as that is what I have downloaded):

5-1.F Landing Emergencies

Under the Off Field Landing portion:

Canopy control
a. A braked approach and braked turns allow for the
canopy to be flown at a slower forward speed and
descent rate but may lengthen the approach glide.
b. Altitude-conserving braked turns may be necessary
to avoid an obstacle.
c. A braked turn at a low altitude may not allow
enough time for recovery to full flight in time for
a landing flare, and a jumper may need to make a
braked landing.
d. Jumpers should practice braked turns and
approaches often to prepare for this eventuality.

Likewise, review Cat F.

I dont know, Matt. What the fuck is wrong with you?


Like I said never had an instructor tell me that, nor have I heard it in the 3+ canopy piloting courses I have taken. Flying quarter brakes during landing pattern, right up until turning onto final? Sure.

Also that part you quoted? Was ONLY if he is doing a BRAKED TURN. He didnt mention doing one or needing to do one. But then again reading comprehension might not be your strong suit?

Xitesmai

I wasnt sitting in half brakes on my final leg...I was making small adjustments as to not land on a runway...I went into the Stage 1 (half brakes) about 3-4 seconds before going to full flare...But once in full flare I didnt feel any lift or change in speed...hence my question.

Gotcha. Thanks for clarifying. Additional causes could have been...
1. Not having enough time after returning to full flight to come out of flight cycle and get a full flare.
2. You havent mentioned what kind of canopy you were jumping but if its F111 and older they sometimes dont flare as dramatically and you really have to bury the toggles.
3. You might simply have not flared quickly enough or to the right sweet spot or high enough for the first stage.

Its kind of hard to say without video. Best thing is as you continue working with your instructors see about getting someone to film all your landings, as that is what tends to help me most. I still do it as often as I can, since I still fairly new as well.

[Xitesmai 0]

Doug_Davis

2. You havent mentioned what kind of canopy you were jumping but if its F111 and older they sometimes dont flare as dramatically and you really have to bury the toggles.
3. You might simply have not flared quickly enough or to the right sweet spot or high enough for the first stage.

My log says M240 so maybe its a Manta 240? I'll double check when I'm at the DZ next time.

I think 3 may have it right, I tried for a smooth transition from half to full, but I may have been too low and not aggressive enough on the toggles.

I'll ask my AFFI next time to film my landing so we can go over that as well.

Thanks

[sundevil777 93]

Quote

I went into the Stage 1 (half brakes) about 3-4 seconds before going to full flare

If you are correct in your estimation of 3-4 seconds, then that I think is waiting a bit too long.

Watch others, experienced and students, seeing what success they do and don't have with different techniques. There isn't just one way to do it, you can make it work even if you start a bit high or low. Talk with not just your instructors, but ask them for others that they trust to help you out, and definitely rely on video for meaningful review of your technique.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[excaza 1]

Doug_Davis

Like I said never had an instructor tell me that, nor have I heard it in the 3+ canopy piloting courses I have taken. Flying quarter brakes during landing pattern, right up until turning onto final? Sure.

Perhaps your approach should be to ask these questions of your instructors before going on with the attitude of "I've taken three canopy courses and haven't been told this so it's wrong." You may not be explicitly stating it, but it's what's coming across.

Quarter brakes, half brakes, 3/4 brakes, full brakes, it doesn't matter, they're all fine. The jumper just needs to be aware that he is taking energy away from his flare (and potentially approaching a stall) and plan accordingly.

Doug_Davis

Also that part you quoted? Was ONLY if he is doing a BRAKED TURN.

Except, you know, where it says braked approach.

Listen more, talk less.

[hillson 0]

Actually if you read the thread after you asked why the OP was in half brakes the discussion really revolved around braked approaches into off-field landings - which often results in having to flare from half brakes as well. You may have heard it called "sinking it in in half brakes" which I'm pretty sure that the poster you accused of sock puppetry was referring to...

But the surprising thing, I think, is that you say that you're unfamiliar with the concept. It is part of the learning and performance objectives if Cat F on the two jumps, assuming that your progression somewhat followed the ISP. Noting, of course, that you may have flown the brakes approach in the pattern and landed normally which can be the case. The mechanics should have been covered, though...a quick, powerful stroke likely a little closer than normal flare height as it is unwise to attempt to recover the canopy to generate speed / lift.

Now, as to *why* one would do this on an off field landing...think back to your Flight 101 course and the exercises where they had you replicate and transpose your std landing pattern over an alternate area when it is clear that you're not making it back home...the typical "oh shit! Not gonna make it back but have to land somewhere safely" routine the basics of changing glide and sink rate were covered, briefly, but that was not the chief aim of the exercise.

As you know braked flight can significantly alter your glide slope...maximum glide in some cases. But it also significantly decreases your forward speed and rate of descent. When you absolutely have to land on that patch of planet it can really help...plus it allows for braked turns to rapidly change heading with a minimum amount of altitude loss. When the shit really hits the fan it allows for obstacle avoidance as maintaining (for the most part) the most important landing priority - wing level. At least more than a toggle turn and it allows you to quickly make sure that canopy is above your head and flying straight.

So, put it all together...why would you use a braked approach when landing out? Max glide and slower descent provide options. General turns and obstacle avoidance can be performed with a minimum of altitude loss while generally having the wing remain (or allow for quicker righting of the wing) above your skull piece. Lastly, when landing it allows for the safest way to get your ass on the ground if you're too low to return to full flight to get a full flare. This isn't about flight cycles, the general order of normal pattern flying etc...as it can prevent minor injury, more serious injury or, in the worst case, the great goodbye. At the core these are *survival* skills.

Likewise, it is of little merit arguing the semantics of a proper "two stage flare" to someone with 4 or 5 total skydives. Indeed, it is perfectly reasonable to assume the OP performed a proper "stage one" given his / her frame of reference and lack of overall skydiving knowledge.

Lastly, outside if whatever other canopy courses you've taken if we are speaking of Flight 1 you would not have seen this topic covered in depth as you have not taken the course (at least according to their matrix) where it is discussed and practiced - Flight 201. Go do another 100-130 jumps so that you meet the minimum requirements and go sign up. At the very least go talk to someone about this extremely important skill set - even if just at "bar school" or the bonfire. I'd rather hear about you learning something than reading about you in the Incidents.

Matt

[Doug_Davis 0]

Hillson,

I know why it could be useful.

I also know as you mentioned:

Quote

you may have flown the brakes approach in the pattern and landed normally which can be the case.

And as was the case during my course we were jumping older F111 canopies and needed all the flare power we could get to land safely, so we didnt fly final on half brakes.

Lastly the guy didnt land "off field". He didnt land in a back yard. He land as the OP himself noted, "wrong corner of the airfield." Thats it. As a student he doesnt need a page long soliloquy on the finer points of canopy piloting. As is most often the case, and as he himself admits, since he didnt fly final on a half-braked position, it was probably lack of an authoritative flare. And he can sort it out with his instructors.

[xsniper 1]

Doug_Davis

Hillson,

I know why it could be useful.

I also know as you mentioned:

Quote

you may have flown the brakes approach in the pattern and landed normally which can be the case.

And as was the case during my course we were jumping older F111 canopies and needed all the flare power we could get to land safely, so we didnt fly final on half brakes.

Lastly the guy didnt land "off field". He didnt land in a back yard. He land as the OP himself noted, "wrong corner of the airfield." Thats it. As a student he doesnt need a page long soliloquy on the finer points of canopy piloting. As is most often the case, and as he himself admits, since he didnt fly final on a half-braked position, it was probably lack of an authoritative flare. And he can sort it out with his instructors.

Am I reading this all wrong.....is Doug Davis really argueing canopy control with Hillson??

[ridebmxbikes 0]

xsniper

***Hillson,

I know why it could be useful.

I also know as you mentioned:

Quote

you may have flown the brakes approach in the pattern and landed normally which can be the case.

And as was the case during my course we were jumping older F111 canopies and needed all the flare power we could get to land safely, so we didnt fly final on half brakes.

Lastly the guy didnt land "off field". He didnt land in a back yard. He land as the OP himself noted, "wrong corner of the airfield." Thats it. As a student he doesnt need a page long soliloquy on the finer points of canopy piloting. As is most often the case, and as he himself admits, since he didnt fly final on a half-braked position, it was probably lack of an authoritative flare. And he can sort it out with his instructors.

Am I reading this all wrong.....is Doug Davis really argueing canopy control with Hillson??

just wait till he has 100 jumps

[kuai43 7]

xsniper

Am I reading this all wrong.....is Doug Davis really argueing canopy control with Hillson??

I think we're seeing the real 'sock-puppetry'.

Every fight is a food fight if you're a cannibal

Goodness is something to be chosen. When a man cannot choose, he ceases to be a man. - Anthony Burgess

[justme12001 0]

Ever heard the expression "you don't know what you don't know"?

You really should STFU until you actually learn to fly a canopy!