Comp Velo update/replacement?

[cmercha 1]

Does anyone know if PD plans to update the comp velo?  It seems like there is a gap of modern design elements between Sabre3 and Valkyrie?  I know people still like the comp velo, so i could be totally wrong about the gap, but it seems like that part of the lineup is lagging behind.

[nwt 131]

23 hours ago, cmercha said:

Does anyone know if PD plans to update the comp velo?  It seems like there is a gap of modern design elements between Sabre3 and Valkyrie?  I know people still like the comp velo, so i could be totally wrong about the gap, but it seems like that part of the lineup is lagging behind.

Curt Bartholomew is still winning medals on it

[cmercha 1]

That’s a fair point.  I’m not saying the katana and comp velo aren’t good, just wondering if anyone is aware if they are close to making either better.

[BMAC615 205]

Call John LeBlanc and ask him.

[Deimian 43]

The same is true for almost all manufacturers. The entry-level cross-braced canopies are all old designs, except the Gangster from Fluid Wings. The JFX2 is a nice refreshment, but looks to me basically like a JFX1 with a couple of small changes, not a completely new canopy.

I really would like to see in this category a canopy with inflatable stabilizers, miniribs, and Schumann planform. Maybe these things would drive the manufacturing cost too high for this category?

BTW: The Katana also needs an update

[nwt 131]

5 hours ago, Deimian said:

The JFX2 is a nice refreshment, but looks to me basically like a JFX1 with a couple of small changes, not a completely new canopy.

I'm no expert but I think that's probably what you should be expecting from an update. Curt said my first crossbraced should definitely be a JFX2 and not the original.

[nwt 131]

9 hours ago, Deimian said:

BTW: The Katana also needs an update

A Katana update would be great. I think PD didn't decide for sure whether their new canopy would be a Sabre3 or Katana2 until relatively late.

[Deimian 43]

On 8/6/2021 at 4:14 PM, nwt said:

I'm no expert but I think that's probably what you should be expecting from an update. Curt said my first crossbraced should definitely be a JFX2 and not the original.

Don't get me wrong, I think the JFX2 is a nice canopy and definitely an improvement over the original. But I think they left some interesting things on the table. The (probably) most important one is having the chance of having a Schumann planform canopy suitable for people that is jumping cross-braced for the first time. Just my 2 cents.

[nwt 131]

On 8/8/2021 at 3:00 AM, Deimian said:

The (probably) most important one is having the chance of having a Schumann planform canopy suitable for people that is jumping cross-braced for the first time. 

Why?

[Deimian 43]

I see a few reasons:

- Schumann planform canopies tend to have more lift than traditional elliptical canopies, and they tend to hold longer in rears. I believe that is one of the reasons why paragliding canopies have been using this planform for a long time.

- They tend to open better. At least I haven't seen any Schumann canopy that does not open nicely and on heading most of the time (X-Fire, all the Fluid Wing canopies, Valkyrie, Petra, Leia, Odyssey EVO). Maybe it is just coincidence, but seems like a big coincidence to me.

- They tend to be more responsive on harness.

- Connected to previous point: All the advanced cross-braced canopies are Schumann nowadays. I think an entry level cross-braced Schumann canopy would make the transition into the advanced ones a bit more natural

Asking the other way around: why not? I think the only reason not to do it is that it requires a bigger investment in R&D than a smaller update of an existing canopy. But since we have high end crossbraced canopies and advanced 9 cell regular canopies using Schumann planform, I see no reason to don't think it is a good idea. Entry-level crossbraced canopies are right in between these 2 categories.

[MrBrant 0]

Personally, I'd love to see a modern intro/first cross-braced that:

- Opens well

- Has a long recovery arc 

- Is very responsive to harness

- Amazing rears & shutdown

- Available in larger sizes (120-135) for the husky swooper 

 

 

[nwt 131]

7 hours ago, Deimian said:

Asking the other way around: why not?

I dunno. I don't pretend to know anything about designing canopies, and I assume they have their reasons. I do appreciate your explanation though.

You say they Schumanns are more harness sensitive and maybe that has something to do with it--for an intro/intermediate CB canopy you aren't trying to optimize everything for performance, that's what the top line is for. If you redesign the VC and end up with another VK, you haven't really done anything useful.

[Deimian 43]

 

 

14 hours ago, nwt said:

for an intro/intermediate CB canopy you aren't trying to optimize everything for performance, that's what the top line is for.

You are right, but changing planform does not necessarily mean "optimize everything for performance". Things like openings, and harness responsiveness have nothing to do with performance. Other stuff, like how far the wing can carry you in rears for a given airspeed has to do with performance, but has nothing to do with the aggressiveness of the canopy (aggressiveness is for me, in this context, how much speed you can produce by making it dive). The top line is both very high performant and very aggressive. Nothing speaks against having high performance (lift produced, distance in rears, flare power) and medium aggressiveness (don't dive until the end of days)

14 hours ago, nwt said:

If you redesign the VC and end up with another VK, you haven't really done anything useful.

One can always tweak and tame down some aspects. A "VC" with Schumann planform is not necessarily a VK. The Gangster from Fluid Wings is Schumann, but dives less than the VC for instance. The X-Fire is Schumann and it is not even cross-braced, and it dives less than the Gangster. A "VK lite", with the great openings of the VK, its rears, its harness responsiveness, its flare power, but with a shorter dive sounds good to me. I can imagine a future PD progression like SA3 -> KA2 (updated Katana with a bit less dive than the actual one, but all the good things of canopies like the X-Fire) -> "VK lite" -> VK

In any case, that's just my view, I am also not a canopy designer. Maybe I am just missing something.

[Veis 18]

I will clarify that the greater ellipticity of the front than the rear does not necessarily mean "Schumann planform"- like PPCD "Bercut"(extreme case, for example), etc.This can be understood when measuring the lines system.

Some of the canopies listed here are more likely to belong to pseudo-"Schumann planform"

 

[Binary93 65]

19 hours ago, Veis said:

Some of the canopies listed here are more likely to belong to pseudo-"Schumann planform"

Which ones specifically?

On 8/11/2021 at 11:30 AM, Deimian said:

X-Fire, all the Fluid Wing canopies, Valkyrie, Petra, Leia, Odyssey EVO

This is the only "listing" I see here, so not sure what you mean cause these are all schuemann (except Prime and Nexus from FW, but obviously that would be nitpicking).

[Deimian 43]

Strictly speaking, he's right. Actually, strictly speaking, there is no skydiving canopy that has a Schumann planform. The "original" (for lack of a better word) Schumann planform is a planform for gliders, with very high ellipticity on the leading edge (towards the wingtips), and a straight trailing edge. Gliders have wings that have a much longer span than any skydiving canopy, so no skydiving canopy can have a Schumann planform, if we are strict with the terms.

But if we abuse the term and apply to "high ellipticity on the leading edge and straight trailing edge", I think it is not bad if we abuse it a bit more and apply it to "high ellipticity on the leading edge and straight-ish (as compared with the leading edge) trailing edge". And that applies to all the canopies I listed, if I am not mistaken.

[Binary93 65]

Fair enough. I'm just the person to prefer talking about the essence rather than formalism and linguistics. Even more so, "some" in that sentence suggests some of them are "true schuemann planform" while some aren't. Sorry for derailing the thread a bit.

[Veis 18]

14 hours ago, Binary93 said:

Which ones specifically?

The gangster, most of 7-cell, have Schumann-style winglets, instead of classic stabilizers, but no Schumann flow around the entire wing surface.

[Travman 6]

On 8/6/2021 at 3:14 PM, nwt said:

I'm no expert but I think that's probably what you should be expecting from an update. Curt said my first crossbraced should definitely be a JFX2 and not the original.

I had the original JFX and now have a couple of JFX2's.  I would definately take a JFX2 over a JFX 1 any day, but thats no surprise given it is a new version.  I feel they improved every aspect of the original without messing up any of the good qualities.  There will obviously be more JFX's on the used market given how long its been around and some will be upgrading to a JFX2.  So it depends on how patient you want to be or even if you want to buy new.  

[nwt 131]

3 hours ago, Travman said:

I had the original JFX and now have a couple of JFX2's.  I would definately take a JFX2 over a JFX 1 any day, but thats no surprise given it is a new version.  I feel they improved every aspect of the original without messing up any of the good qualities.  There will obviously be more JFX's on the used market given how long its been around and some will be upgrading to a JFX2.  So it depends on how patient you want to be or even if you want to buy new.  

I imagine I'll probably end up having to buy new unless I get really lucky. But, I do have a couple more Katanas to get through first and it's probably a couple years away.