FLAG demo wingloading

[milehighpres 0]

OK well lets hope i can explain this properly.

lets say your wingloading is a simple 1:1, and you want to do a demp jump with a flag 4x6 feet in size. with a 8lbs weight.

how much does the wind drag of the flag affect your wingloading. for that size flag if you were jumping a 170 sabre 2 and were wingloaded at 1:1 what size would you want to go up to to have the same wingloading with the flag attached??

hope airtwardo can help!!! and oh hopefully see you at the balloon fest on long island again this year!! with new risers

"the sky is not the limit....the ground is"

[BillyVance 34]

I've jumped a 4 X 6 flag on my Triathlon 120 and didn't need weights, and did just fine. That 120 was loaded about 1.4 to 1. My usual flag is a 3 X 5 though.

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[tkhayes 124]

depends on what you are trying to do - display the flag or fly the parachute the way you want to fly it.

I have found that flags looks best on very slow parachutes. Even if you put 40 lbs of weight on the end of a flag, the flag can still 'streamer' behind you if your canopy is too fast.

I jumped a 30x30 banner with about 15-20 lbs of weight on the bottom. with a 230 canopy it looked like shit, with a 260-280, it looked great, and my exit weight was about 270.

try different combinations and different canopies. every demo is different and if the goal is to display the flag properly, then you should focus on that....

[AndyMan 7]

With a small flag, like a 4*6, I've found it doesn't affect the parachute flight much.

The key to getting the flag to display properly is to have the corners anchored properly, at your ankle and then again at your risers. I use bungees so that it's pulled tight and doesn't sag. Then, under canopy you need to remember to keep your leg straight so that the flag is tight.

When jumping a flag that small, I've often use my small eliptical.

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[milehighpres 0]

thank you guys so far...

for clarification i was talking about hanging a flag below me not off a suspension line.

but learning about both is helpful thanks again.

and any other tips on building a smoke boot, flag bag, flag bag designs, etc.

and i know jay stokes holds a class, but is there anything written anywhere to help build a demo, or is it all passed down from the older jumpers??

"the sky is not the limit....the ground is"

[matthewcline 0]

A few definitions, applications and then my experience (or $.02).

Drop Flag = flag flown under the jumper usually weighted so it has a nice tight leading edge. Weight methods vary.

Canopy Flag = flag mounted and flown under the canopy from a specially built bag mounted on the bottom skin of the canopy and attached to a rear riser using a pulley type system to deploy it. Most Mil teams have these, as they are the best for their line of work.

Body flag = flag stuffed in a jump suit and clipped to a riser and harness or body part of the jumper after opening. This is typical of a Demo jump where the jumper does not derive a large portion of income or jumps from Demonstrations.

Pro of the canopy mounted system is that it is not an extra appurtenance to deal with until the canopy is deployed and your done with the controllability check (yep you still do em even at this level) and no new EP procedure is needed. There is no weight and the flag leaves the field after landing with the jumper, plus it is easier to recover (for the ground crew only ones catcher is needed) and it looks good as the canopy is keeping the leading edge straight.

Con of the canopy mounted system is the size of the flag is limited by the flag bag, d-bag and container size, if the flag is to big for the flag bag it will deploy it self during the canopy deployment, that can cause issues (we call them “nuisances”) that have to be resolved prior to flying the canopy to the target.

Pro of the drop flags, you can get BIG. The largest flown flags are drop flags. You can have flags as large as 7800 square feet (and some may go larger I am sure). They look impressive.

Con of the drop flag is a lot of training is needed. Not every one does this and thinks a brief and a off the cuff plan will work, people die or get really hurt with these flags, even the most experienced have been hurt. They can be heavy and bulky; they need a recovery system for cutting them away, and for recovering them when all goes well. They are harder to get into a stadium, or similar type place, as you have to fly your self for the weight at the bottom, not your feet (where we normally fly make sense?).

Pro of a body flag is they are easy to train, not very expensive to rig, don’t need weight and are only limited by the jumpers height (if a jumper is 6 foot he can jump a 8 foot leading edge flag using the top of a rear riser as the attachment point and a foot loop).

Con of the body flag is the rigging of it under canopy, it would suck to drop it or have it fly in your face under a loaded canopy.

A few points of interest; Canopies with canopy flags fly pretty close to the trim setting, only a little slower due to drag. Canopies with a body flag fly pretty close as well again a little slower due to drag. Canopies with drop flags tend to down plane a bit and it gets more prominent as the footage gets larger. You can see this countered by looking at the Fastrax jump with Gene Newsome and the 3500 square foot flag over Lady Liberty. Gene is in the brakes, slowing the canopy and bringing the flag under him better. This supports the slower is better theory for drop flags.

Some think loading the jumper with weight helps, I disagree I think the loading of the jumper only increases the speed of the canopy and distorts the flag more meaning the jumper has to work harder to keep the flag flying “flat”.

Spotting = be real damn good at it, if your a GPS spotter and know not how to spot by your own two eyes young grass hopper, learn and be damn good at it before you do the demo. No matter the canopy or flag set up you use you will not get the same amount of performance from your canopy due to the drag, which means less room for error.

Hope some of this helps.

Matt

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[airtwardo 6]

Quote

OK well lets hope i can explain this properly.

lets say your wingloading is a simple 1:1, and you want to do a demo jump with a flag 4x6 feet in size. with a 8lbs weight.

how much does the wind drag of the flag affect your wingloading. for that size flag if you were jumping a 170 sabre 2 and were wingloaded at 1:1 what size would you want to go up to to have the same wingloading with the flag attached??

hope airtwardo can help!!! and oh hopefully see you at the balloon fest on long island again this year!! with new risers

With a 3X5 or a 4X6 flag, as mentioned above the 'best' fastest and easiest was to fly it is with a bungee attached to the bottom with a loop to go over your foot.

Then you don't need 'any' weight at all.

If you are going to use it as a 'drop' flag, the w/l effect and drag will be negligible with something that size.

Also as stated above, with a 170 @ 1:1 it's going to be flapping pretty good no matter how much weight you hang.

...a couple of tips in that regard you may want to consider~
Try a larger slower canopy, more airtime and a better presentation, if that's not a practical option, fly a lot of your pattern in 1/2 brakes. That keeps the flag below you and straight, instead of behind you.

Don't use a 'hanging weight' on the flag, instead weight the leading edge with tubular nylon filled with lead shot. This stiffens the leading edge, and spaced properly will require 1/2 to 2/3 the weight something tied to the bottom needs for the same effect.

Lanyard length also has a tremendous effect on the way a flag presents and how much weight you need.
Too short and the flag trails you at a 45 degree angle flapping like crazy, too long and it snaps during turns.

Getting it right for 'your' flag-parachute combination may take a jump or two for experimenting.

Good luck, have any more questions fire away, and yeah...I sure HOPE they have us back to the Fest this year, had a blast with you guys, and I kinda miss that DZ dog!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[airtwardo 6]

Canopies with drop flags tend to down plane a bit and it gets more prominent as the footage gets larger.

Quote

True, but that can be counteracted in part with lanyard length and proper weight...if after adjusting those variables it still downplanes too much, ya need a smaller flag or a bigger canopy.

He's a pic of a WAY too fast canopy...or not enough weight.


2nd pic is how I ride that lanyard to be able to tell exactly what the flag is doing during the pattern.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[matthewcline 0]

I do a simular thing with my legs to not only keep the flag and I on the same page but keep my nuts happy with me too.

Do You use a tandem set up for your large stuff?

Matt

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[mjosparky 3]

Jim has covered just about everything. It is a matter of weight placement and lanyard length. The attached picture is a 600 sq. ft. flag under a 245 sq. ft. canopy with an exit weight of 275 pounds.
Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[airtwardo 6]

Quote

I do a similar thing with my legs to not only keep the flag and I on the same page but keep my nuts happy with me too.

Do You use a tandem set up for your large stuff?

Matt

Hi Matt~

Yes we use a standard Strong Tandem with a Set-400 for anything 2500 sqft and up, and have a couple of custom systems that use large sport canopies like a Might-Mac...but also have a 'tandem type' attachment rings & drogue and release system, for large flags or pyro with big jumpers (like me) that will be going to terminal.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[airtwardo 6]

Quote

Jim has covered just about everything. It is a matter of weight placement and lanyard length. The attached picture is a 600 sq. ft. flag under a 245 sq. ft. canopy with an exit weight of 275 pounds.
Sparky

Nice pic Sparky!

Here's one with a 245 canopy, 800 sqft flag and 320lb. exit weight...(yeah I know, too much pizza)

2nd is an example of a 'canopy flag'.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[Jethers203 0]

Hi Airtwardo,

I was just researching some things on here and had a few quick questions for you.

I am rigging up a 12' x 18' (216 sq ft.) flag to start practicing with for future DEMOs.

1) What are your thoughts about the flag's dimensions? I've heard some say that it is too rectangular.

2) My exit weight will be 253 lbs on a 190 Spectre. Loading the canopy at 1.33. What are your thoughts on the loading?

I will fly in breaks as much as possible and limit any turns I do.

Thanks in advance for your help.

Clint

[sundevil777 93]

Quote

I am rigging up a 12' x 18' (216 sq ft.) flag to start practicing with for future DEMOs.

1) What are your thoughts about the flag's dimensions? I've heard some say that it is too rectangular.

The aspect ratio is supposed to be 1:1.9, or 10:19. For it to be much different than that would be a bad decision I think.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[Jethers203 0]

Thanks for your comment.

I am looking into exchanging it.

Clint

[sundevil777 93]

Jethers203

Thanks for your comment.

I am looking into exchanging it.

Clint

After more research, it seems that it is very common to use other sizes.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[justme12001 0]

I do the same thing with my lanyard around my leg. I like the way it makes me feel "connected" to the flag. It just doesn't feel right when I let it just fly behind me.

This is a 20'x38' (760 sqft) flag under a falcon 265. With the weight running down the leading edge. I think I only had to use 19 lbs to get it to fly that straight, vs the 27 lbs that I had hanging to make it fly right.