Energy Storage: Is this the game changer?

[billeisele 122]

On 7/30/2021 at 9:29 AM, wmw999 said:

I think you're absolutely right about that. Another thing that comes into play is the increasing energy-effectiveness of buildings. Including retrofitting older buildings to be more energy-efficient. Right now we tend to have a "I can afford it, so it's OK" approach to energy consumption. Kind of like the impact of recycling on trash streams (when it's practical).

The mantra is reduce, reuse, recycle -- with reduce being first for a reason. If a home is very energy-efficient, then not as much power is needed to maintain it regardless of anything. Same for energy -- if your house is tight and well-insulated, you don't need as much to heat it. If it's sited appropriately and shaded from the afternoon sun, you don't need as much to cool it. It'll never be perfect, but focusing on the lack of perfection to avoid making changes is, well, chickenshit.

Wendy P.

Exactly. Energy efficiency is the least expensive method to save money.

I've had customers ask me about solar and when auditing their home it needs insulation, ventilation, infiltration mitigation and other standard items. All of which are significantly cheaper and more effective than solar. Ignoring that advice they go for the sexy solar solution. So dumb. 

It is surprising how much the utility bill will decline just by doing the basic stuff.

[murps2000 86]

17 minutes ago, billeisele said:

Exactly. Energy efficiency is the least expensive method to save money.

I've had customers ask me about solar and when auditing their home it needs insulation, ventilation, infiltration mitigation and other standard items. All of which are significantly cheaper and more effective than solar. Ignoring that advice they go for the sexy solar solution. So dumb. 

It is surprising how much the utility bill will decline just by doing the basic stuff.

Kind of like maintaining your tire pressure to use less fuel. So easy, so cheap, so often ignored.

[kallend 1,620]

10 hours ago, billvon said:

 

Of course not everyone will participate.  Those rural West Virginians who live in 100 year old homes and drive 20 year old vehicles won't - but then again, they're also not using much power.  People in population centers will do this more often.

 

This urban Chicagoan living in a 90 year old home and oftentimes driving a 76 year old MG looks forward to having storage capacity.

(At least my house is newer than the one next door, which is 120 years old).

[sfzombie13 307]

13 hours ago, billvon said:

Of course not everyone will participate.  Those rural West Virginians who live in 100 year old homes and drive 20 year old vehicles won't - but then again, they're also not using much power.  People in population centers will do this more often.

It is worthwhile to note that some of those rural West Virginians may get irate when they see power outages due to demand, line damage, shutdowns for fire prevention, extreme weather (which is on the increase) and other reasons.  And even those backwoods, never-buy-anything-new West Virginians may decide that they want their next car to be able to provide power when that happens.  Even if it's a 10 year old broken down Leaf.

it's also interesting to note that most rural wv folks don't live in 100 year old houses, they live in fairly new trailers.  the vehicles, well they run the gamut.  not many electrics, the attorney general won't let them have a tesla dealership here, so you have that side of it.  just like most other aspects of wv politics, it isn't quite as easy to determine exactly what it going on and who is benefiting the most, but it's pretty easy to say that if it's going on, it isn't going to benefit the regular folks, except as a side effect.  things work differently in the extraction economy that we are forced to deal with if we want to stay. 

[JerryBaumchen 1,046]

6 hours ago, billeisele said:

Exactly. Energy efficiency is the least expensive method to save money.

I've had customers ask me about solar and when auditing their home it needs insulation, ventilation, infiltration mitigation and other standard items. All of which are significantly cheaper and more effective than solar. Ignoring that advice they go for the sexy solar solution. So dumb. 

It is surprising how much the utility bill will decline just by doing the basic stuff.

Hi Bill,

I've had customers ask me about solar and when auditing their home it needs insulation, ventilation, infiltration mitigation and other standard items. All of which are significantly cheaper and more effective than solar. Ignoring that advice they go for the sexy solar solution. So dumb. 

Your post reminds me of something I read quite a few years ago.  What is the first question the new car salesman says to a potential customer?  'What color do you want?'  Yup, 'so dumb.'

Having worked for the Dept of Energy since its inception until I retired in the Fall of '99, I've had the opportunity to attend many seminars on energy efficiency, in both commercial buildings & residential.

My current house was built in '83.  I bought it in '95.  It has fairly good insulation.  The first time I got up & looked into the attic, I found that the blown-in insulation was in 'mounds.'  Mounds meaning that it was no longer as evenly spread as it was when first installed, it had high & low mounds of whatever had been blown in.  Soon after, I had all of the blown-in vacuumed out & I replaced it with 12" fiberglass batts.  I even built a tool to help me in getting the batts as close to the outer edge of the house as I could.  When I bought the house, it had single-pane aluminum-framed windows.  I have replaced every window with double-pane fiberglass framed windows.  

While you & I are in agreement on what one can do to use less energy in their own home, we should remember that the average home-owner has never studied Thermodynamics, has never been to a seminar on energy efficiency, and knows little of what an energy audit is.  IMO therein lies the problem.  The DOE should get into the education business if we really want to save energy.

A number of years ago, I spent a fair amount time looking into a geo-thermal heating/cooling system for my house.  I decided, that at my age, it was not a good investment.  In hindsight, I should have converted to this type of system right after I bought the house 26 yrs ago; it would have been a good investment then.

Keep up with the posts like this, it helps to inform all of us.

Jerry Baumchen

Edited August 1, 2021 by JerryBaumchen

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

6 hours ago, JerryBaumchen said:

 

... we should remember that the average home-owner...

...knows little of what an energy audit is. 

 

...Keep up with the posts like this, it helps to inform all of us.

Jerry Baumchen

Hi Jerry,

I don't know how it is where you are, but the power companies around here are actually pretty proactive about conservation. 
One thing they do is advise people to get energy audits, and even offer discounts through 'recommended contractors'. 
They put fliers in the bill envelopes with big print asking 'Do you want to cut your energy bill?'

I agree that Bill's posts are informative.
I don't always agree with him. But I almost always learn something.

[billvon 2,380]

On 8/1/2021 at 4:26 AM, billeisele said:

Exactly. Energy efficiency is the least expensive method to save money.

Yep.  If anyone plans to put in solar, I always recommend they spend their money on efficiency improvements first.  For every dollar you spend on efficiency, you save $2-$10 on the solar system you will need to power your house 100%.

[billeisele 122]

On 8/1/2021 at 2:17 PM, JerryBaumchen said:

Hi Bill,

I've had customers ask me about solar and when auditing their home it needs insulation, ventilation, infiltration mitigation and other standard items. All of which are significantly cheaper and more effective than solar. Ignoring that advice they go for the sexy solar solution. So dumb. 

Your post reminds me of something I read quite a few years ago.  What is the first question the new car salesman says to a potential customer?  'What color do you want?'  Yup, 'so dumb.'

Having worked for the Dept of Energy since its inception until I retired in the Fall of '99, I've had the opportunity to attend many seminars on energy efficiency, in both commercial buildings & residential.

My current house was built in '83.  I bought it in '95.  It has fairly good insulation.  The first time I got up & looked into the attic, I found that the blown-in insulation was in 'mounds.'  Mounds meaning that it was no longer as evenly spread as it was when first installed, it had high & low mounds of whatever had been blown in.  Soon after, I had all of the blown-in vacuumed out & I replaced it with 12" fiberglass batts.  I even built a tool to help me in getting the batts as close to the outer edge of the house as I could.  When I bought the house, it had single-pane aluminum-framed windows.  I have replaced every window with double-pane fiberglass framed windows.  

While you & I are in agreement on what one can do to use less energy in their own home, we should remember that the average home-owner has never studied Thermodynamics, has never been to a seminar on energy efficiency, and knows little of what an energy audit is.  IMO therein lies the problem.  The DOE should get into the education business if we really want to save energy.

A number of years ago, I spent a fair amount time looking into a geo-thermal heating/cooling system for my house.  I decided, that at my age, it was not a good investment.  In hindsight, I should have converted to this type of system right after I bought the house 26 yrs ago; it would have been a good investment then.

Keep up with the posts like this, it helps to inform all of us.

Jerry Baumchen

Jerry - We may have crossed paths at a DOE event. There are many great examples of how well efficiency works. In 1990 I bought a 1987 house, not bad construction but they missed the simple stuff (relative to energy use). Luckily it was a crawl space home with good attic access. I sealed the wiring and plumbing penetrations, and did a few other simple things to reduce infiltration. The prior owners were elderly and just 2 of them. We were a family of 4, presumably using more hot water, more laundry, more TV and more plug in devices. The consumption went down 22%. The one unknown was their thermostat setting.

It was a 2-story house with 2 HVAC units. 10 years later the units were replaced. We used a gas pac downstairs and a heat pump upstairs. The two major changes were the increase in EER/SEER and reduction in the upstairs unit of 1/2 ton because it was oversized. Amazing, another 30% decrease in consumption. The upstairs unit was the trick. 2 ton on 1600 sq ft., but used a 2.5 ton air handler, set the fan on low speed. That thing easily controlled the humidity and it was quite comfortable at 77/78 degrees.

Oversized units were a common problem on the houses I audited. Typical HVAC guy knew that a bigger unit cooled the house and they wouldn't get called back. This is one system that most homeowners know nothing about.

After controlling infiltration, insulation is key. Foam insulation is the new thing and it works great, one reason is it 100% stops infiltration. But it's expensive. It also adds structural integrity to the house. I'm not yet sold on foaming the roof deck because that doesn't allow the shingles to cool off by transferring heat to the attic. We'll see about that in a few years. If shingles start failing early that will by why. I'm now in a house with a Spanish style tile roof. It's surprising how cool the attic is and how low the consumption is.

On geothermal, we got heavy into that. Great idea if the cost of the piping was reasonable. I may still be "the guy" that has installed the most geothermal units in SC. Did about 1,800 of them. Mostly in houses but some commercial like gyms, apartment complex, theaters, churches. We did a military housing complex and that type bulk installation gets some good pricing in pipe installation and equipment. We used vertical wells. Brought drillers from OK and TX. It was master metered and had demand data so it was easy to monitor consumption. The reduction was 40+%. 

Closed loop is the way to go. Vertical is expensive unless one is in an area where the drillers are accustomed to doing it. Horizontal is great. Even better if one has a backhoe with a narrow bucket. Great for rural folks. The equipment is standard price. With this tech it's important to understand payback and how the tech works.

[billeisele 122]

11 hours ago, billvon said:

Yep.  If anyone plans to put in solar, I always recommend they spend their money on efficiency improvements first.  For every dollar you spend on efficiency, you save $2-$10 on the solar system you will need to power your house 100%.

Exactly, and that's one of my main dislikes of the solar companies in my area. Have a friend that did solar. He needed more attic insulation, and to remove the incandescent lighting. The solar company sized the system for the existing house then they "offered" to do the insulation and lighting. They also installed a powered attic vent fan. If the attic is properly insulated the vent fan isn't needed and actually can cause problems.

Four problems. The solar was sized for energy usage that no longer existed, they charged almost double what it should have cost to do the insulation and lighting, and the attic fan. On the lighting - everything was converted to LED. I luv LED but putting it in a closet or storage area where the light is rarely on is not suggested.

If he had done what billvon suggests, and not put expensive lighting in areas where it's almost never used, the payback on the system would have been years quicker.

[brenthutch 383]

Meanwhile in the real world, the quest to power the planet with rainbows and unicorn farts faces a reality check 
https://www.ft.com/content/8c9c3d50-98a3-4cdf-907f-901f8c328b90
 

 

[BIGUN 1,048]

56 minutes ago, brenthutch said:

rainbows and unicorn farts faces a reality check 

Don't you think we ought to wait for the "incident report" to see if it's a Tesla or AusNet Services issue. 

[brenthutch 383]

3 minutes ago, BIGUN said:

Don't you think we ought to wait for the "incident report" to see if it's a Tesla or AusNet Services issue. 

How does it matter?

I’m pretty sure this one was not AusNet’s fault 

https://www.businessinsider.com/couples-tesla-caught-fire-charging-overnight-caused-a-house-fire-2021-8

Edited August 6, 2021 by brenthutch

[BIGUN 1,048]

1 minute ago, brenthutch said:

How does it matter?

It will matter if it's a product or process defect. 

[olofscience 420]

2 hours ago, BIGUN said:

It will matter if it's a product or process defect. 

Yup, electric things are dangerous because they could cause fires!

In other news, fossil fuels literally set the sea on fire: https://www.independent.co.uk/climate-change/news/gulf-mexico-oil-pipeline-fire-b1878558.html

For stupid post of the year, brent surely sets an unassailable lead.

Edited August 6, 2021 by olofscience

[BIGUN 1,048]

2 hours ago, olofscience said:

Yup, electric things are dangerous because they could cause fires!

I look at it kinda like the cell battery problem a couple of years back. There's issues, let's use a little scientific methodology, figure it out and move on. GM & Hyundai EV's are having issues also, but Brent is on an anti-TSLA rant again. 

[olofscience 420]

1 hour ago, BIGUN said:

I look at it kinda like the cell battery problem a couple of years back. There's issues, let's use a little scientific methodology, figure it out and move on. GM & Hyundai EV's are having issues also, but Brent is on an anti-TSLA rant again. 

Lithium batteries don't actually contain lithium in metallic form - lithium is "dissolved" in the cathode and anode and lithium ions travel through the electrolyte when the battery is charging and discharging. Like how seawater doesn't contain metallic sodium - it contains dissolved salt.

The flammability of lithium ion batteries is due to the electrolyte, which is usually quite flammable.

Murata has just announced lithium batteries with a solid electrolyte, but they're going to start with tiny batteries and production is starting this fall: Murata to Mass-Produce All-Solid-State Batteries in Fall

[billvon 2,380]

8 hours ago, BIGUN said:

Don't you think we ought to wait for the "incident report" to see if it's a Tesla or AusNet Services issue. 

That would sort of deflate his outrage, though - and then where would he be?  Deflated, that's where, and no one wants to be deflated.

[brenthutch 383]

1 hour ago, billvon said:

That would sort of deflate his outrage, though - and then where would he be?  Deflated, that's where, and no one wants to be deflated.

I’m not outraged, I am amused.  
I was banned for a month after posting a video advocating hybrid cars and personal methane mitigation. I agree there is outrage, it just doesn’t reside with me.

[olofscience 420]

21 hours ago, brenthutch said:

I was banned for a month

so that's why you're trying to catch up on a month of stupid posts  on that metric I'd say you surpassed yourself easily!

[millertime24 8]

I'm just happy knowing I can drive my deleted diesel up and down the 101 in CA and there isn't a thing anyone can do about it.

[JoeWeber 2,294]

On 8/6/2021 at 4:30 PM, brenthutch said:

I’m not outraged, I am amused.  
I was banned for a month after posting a video advocating hybrid cars and personal methane mitigation. I agree there is outrage, it just doesn’t reside with me.

Now doesn't that just suck. Here I banned myself for two months, ending today, just to get away from your crap and one month was a damn gimme. Arghhh..... 

[billvon 2,380]

On 8/6/2021 at 4:30 PM, brenthutch said:

I was banned for a month after posting a video advocating hybrid cars and personal methane mitigation. I agree there is outrage, it just doesn’t reside with me.

Nope.  You were banned for posting off-topic shit after several warnings.

[murps2000 86]

3 hours ago, millertime24 said:

I'm just happy knowing I can drive my deleted diesel up and down the 101 in CA and there isn't a thing anyone can do about it.

Why would anyone want to do anything about it? Thousands of diesel powered trucks move freight up & down 101 every day.

[kallend 1,620]

8 hours ago, millertime24 said:

I'm just happy knowing I can drive my deleted diesel up and down the 101 in CA and there isn't a thing anyone can do about it.

They sure can close the road.

https://www.parks.ca.gov/?page_id=30593

 

[JerryBaumchen 1,046]

Hi folks,

Now, we are starting to get somewhere:  The Dream Edition Range model wearing 19-inch wheels can go the furthest with a 520-mile range

2022 Lucid Air Receives Impressive Official EPA Range Estimates (msn.com)

It just seems that these battery-powered vehicles will soon be able to drive until the driver is too tired to go on.

Jerry Baumchen

Edited September 16, 2021 by JerryBaumchen