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billeisele

Energy Storage: Is this the game changer?

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Received this info in the news feed this morning. It will be interesting to see the test results. When battery energy storage becomes economical for general use that is the game changer for the electric utility industry. It changes or eliminates the conventional transmission and distribution systems, removes point source generator issues, and alters the economics of one of the largest and most critical industries.
 

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1 hour ago, billeisele said:

Received this info in the news feed this morning. It will be interesting to see the test results. When battery energy storage becomes economical for general use that is the game changer for the electric utility industry. It changes or eliminates the conventional transmission and distribution systems, removes point source generator issues, and alters the economics of one of the largest and most critical industries.
 

image.png

not sure where your lion batteries come from, but mine hold power for days at a time in some cases, with very little loss.  also, if you could just cut and paste so the links to the info stayed and we could read them, that would be great.  i'm sure i can find it, but it would make it easier on everyone.  interesting as hell if it actually works.  the salt batteries i read about last year are also a great innovative idea that i haven't heard anything else about.  time to go on a battery research sidetrack.  thanx for the info to get me started.

 

anyone want to read the full article, pretty interesting for sure.  wall street journal has a paywall on theirs.

the sodium batteries have been tested and working for eight months now if anyone wants to look at this one.

Edited by sfzombie13
added links

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Solid state batteries show the promise to put the final knife in the oil industry, sorry Brent.

"Li and his team have designed a stable, lithium-metal, solid-state battery that can be charged and discharged at least 10,000 times — far more cycles than have been previously demonstrated — at a high current density. The researchers paired the new design with a commercial high energy density cathode material.

This battery technology could increase the lifetime of electric vehicles to that of the gasoline cars — 10 to 15 years — without the need to replace the battery. With its high current density, the battery could pave the way for electric vehicles that can fully charge within 10 to 20 minutes."

"a solid-state battery with solid electrolyte shows improved stability with a solid structure, and increased safety since it maintains the form even if the electrolyte is damaged. "

What You Need to Know About Solid-State Batteries

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3 hours ago, sfzombie13 said:

not sure where your lion batteries come from, but mine hold power for days at a time in some cases

I think the article was saying that they store energy for four to six hours before discharging back to the grid.  In other words, due to their cost per kwhr, they are used to peak-shave rather than store power on sunny weekends for use during the week.  This iron battery is being touted as so cheap that you can build gigawatt-hours of storage and store energy over days or weeks rather than hours.

That being said, I've heard this song before.  I started working with lithium ion batteries in 1995, and since then have tested and evaluated dozens of types of batteries, from advanced lead-acid to lithium sulfur to solid state lithium.  And I've seen at least 100 breathless announcements of a new revolutionary battery technology that would solve the energy crisis, store power for weeks, be super cheap, and last for tens of thousands of cycles and tens of years.  Aquion was one promising one - a "salt water" battery similar to this one touted for home storage.  They actually made it into production before folding, and there are a few of them out there.   They don't work well.

There have been dozens of others.  The lithium sulfur battery.  That company (Ovonics) is out of business now.  The molten salt battery.  Flow batteries (which work but are big $$$ and have environmental problems.)  Various sodium batteries.  None have worked as well as existing batteries.

In the 26 years I've been following these things I've seen exactly two that have proven out - silicon anode and solid state batteries for very small amounts of power storage (think motherboard clock batteries.)  Maybe solid state will work out one of these days for high power/high energy storage, but I tend to doubt it based on the charge carrier mobility problem.  Or maybe one of these new technologies will come along and prove itself.  In the meantime, the two mature technologies out there (lithium ion and lithium iron phosphate) work fairly well.

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1 hour ago, billvon said:

In the 26 years I've been following these things I've seen exactly two that have proven out - silicon anode and solid state batteries for very small amounts of power storage (think motherboard clock batteries.)  Maybe solid state will work out one of these days for high power/high energy storage, but I tend to doubt it based on the charge carrier mobility problem.  Or maybe one of these new technologies will come along and prove itself.  In the meantime, the two mature technologies out there (lithium ion and lithium iron phosphate) work fairly well.

did you read the link where the molten salt ones have been brought down from 600* operating temp to 230*?  they are still a ways off using the materials they are, but they are working on replacing the gallium chloride with cheaper alternatives.   once they get that figured out (if they ever do) it will be a game changer.  as they say, still at least 5-10 years away.

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1 hour ago, billvon said:

I think the article was saying that they store energy for four to six hours before discharging back to the grid.  In other words, due to their cost per kwhr, they are used to peak-shave rather than store power on sunny weekends for use during the week.  This iron battery is being touted as so cheap that you can build gigawatt-hours of storage and store energy over days or weeks rather than hours.

That being said, I've heard this song before.  I started working with lithium ion batteries in 1995, and since then have tested and evaluated dozens of types of batteries, from advanced lead-acid to lithium sulfur to solid state lithium.  And I've seen at least 100 breathless announcements of a new revolutionary battery technology that would solve the energy crisis, store power for weeks, be super cheap, and last for tens of thousands of cycles and tens of years.  Aquion was one promising one - a "salt water" battery similar to this one touted for home storage.  They actually made it into production before folding, and there are a few of them out there.   They don't work well.

There have been dozens of others.  The lithium sulfur battery.  That company (Ovonics) is out of business now.  The molten salt battery.  Flow batteries (which work but are big $$$ and have environmental problems.)  Various sodium batteries.  None have worked as well as existing batteries.

In the 26 years I've been following these things I've seen exactly two that have proven out - silicon anode and solid state batteries for very small amounts of power storage (think motherboard clock batteries.)  Maybe solid state will work out one of these days for high power/high energy storage, but I tend to doubt it based on the charge carrier mobility problem.  Or maybe one of these new technologies will come along and prove itself.  In the meantime, the two mature technologies out there (lithium ion and lithium iron phosphate) work fairly well.

Hi Bill,

When I read this post, the first thing to cross my mind was this:  March 10, 1876: 'Mr. Watson, Come Here ...' | WIRED

Almost all of us carry a phone that has come a long way from what they used.

The advancements in technology always amaze me.  I hope it continues.

Jerry Baumchen

 

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18 hours ago, JerryBaumchen said:

The advancements in technology always amaze me.  I hope it continues.

Jerry Baumchen

Jerry - I'm right there with you, amazing things happening. On a side note, a friend of mines grandmother died this week at 103 years old. It's hard to imagine the changes she lived. Not just tech but culture, wars, famine, disease and everything else non-tech. But on the tech side to live at a time when there was no such thing as electronics and then be able to have everything with a small pocket sized device. Would have luved to have asked her about that.
 

 

20 hours ago, billvon said:

That being said, I've heard this song before.  

There have been dozens of others.  

In the 26 years I've been following these things I've seen exactly two that have proven out - silicon anode and solid state batteries for very small amounts of power storage (think motherboard clock batteries.)   Or maybe one of these new technologies will come along and prove itself.  In the meantime, the two mature technologies out there (lithium ion and lithium iron phosphate) work fairly well.

Was waiting to see your input, always enlightening, thanks. Seems that the tech exists next will have to be better economics.

 

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My father died about 10 years ago, and he was born the same time as your friend’s grandmother. He loved all the change and advanced, and always marveled at the changes HIS mother saw (she died at 99 in 1986). But he thought some of them robbed of the opportunity for investigation and discovery (can you tell he was an engineer ^.^)

Wendy P. 

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21 hours ago, billvon said:

I think the article was saying that they store energy for four to six hours before discharging back to the grid. ...

In the 26 years I've been following these things I've seen exactly two that have proven out - silicon anode and solid state batteries for very small amounts of power storage (think motherboard clock batteries.)  Maybe solid state will work out one of these days for high power/high energy storage, but I tend to doubt it based on the charge carrier mobility problem.  Or maybe one of these new technologies will come along and prove itself.  In the meantime, the two mature technologies out there (lithium ion and lithium iron phosphate) work fairly well.

Engineers will come through. Given the stunning amount of money pouring into batteries, engines, etc. MB just announced another $47 billion in EV development. and new announcements seem to come each quarter. Of course you're right about promises v reality. Storage for homes, the grid, auto's, recreational vehicles and consumer products is insatiable.

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On 7/23/2021 at 8:06 AM, sfzombie13 said:

not sure where your lion batteries come from, but mine hold power for days at a time in some cases, with very little loss.  also, if you could just cut and paste so the links to the info stayed and we could read them, that would be great.  i'm sure i can find it, but it would make it easier on everyone.  interesting as hell if it actually works.  the salt batteries i read about last year are also a great innovative idea that i haven't heard anything else about.  time to go on a battery research sidetrack.  thanx for the info to get me started.

 

anyone want to read the full article, pretty interesting for sure.  wall street journal has a paywall on theirs.

the sodium batteries have been tested and working for eight months now if anyone wants to look at this one.

There are abandon salt caverns in Central New York State where they would pump water down then pump up the brine and evaporate it for the salt..  Hang large dissimilar plates and fill the caverns with water and have a giant battery.

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17 hours ago, Bigfalls said:

There are abandon salt caverns in Central New York State where they would pump water down then pump up the brine and evaporate it for the salt..  Hang large dissimilar plates and fill the caverns with water and have a giant battery.

then all you would need to do would be to heat the entire cavern to around 230*.  i doubt it would work well, but i know next to nothing about that except what was in the articles.

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On 7/23/2021 at 4:47 AM, billeisele said:

Received this info in the news feed this morning. It will be interesting to see the test results. When battery energy storage becomes economical for general use that is the game changer for the electric utility industry. It changes or eliminates the conventional transmission and distribution systems, removes point source generator issues, and alters the economics of one of the largest and most critical industries.
 

image.png

Hi Bill,

Just saw this news article that might interest you:  'World's most powerful' wave turbine starts generating electricity (msn.com)

Jerry Baumchen

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12 hours ago, JerryBaumchen said:

Hi Bill,

Just saw this news article that might interest you:  'World's most powerful' wave turbine starts generating electricity (msn.com)

Jerry Baumchen

Harnessing tidal energy and ocean currents has a ton of technical challenges. Some can be overcome with money. Seems that it's always a question of economics. 

It's will be interesting to see the long term results. 

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Decentralizing power generation really seems to me to be a good path; more resilient, and it means that more people will pay attention to what they use. It’s not as practical in denser areas like cities, but if Massachusetts, with its northern latitudes, can generate 1/4 of its power using renewables, with small-scale solar being the largest contributor (source), then some of the sunnier states should be able to, too. 
Wendy P. 

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11 hours ago, wmw999 said:

Decentralizing power generation really seems to me to be a good path; more resilient, and it means that more people will pay attention to what they use. It’s not as practical in denser areas like cities, but if Massachusetts, with its northern latitudes, can generate 1/4 of its power using renewables, with small-scale solar being the largest contributor (source), then some of the sunnier states should be able to, too. 
Wendy P. 

Ms Wendy - when the renewable isn't working where do they get power from?

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7 hours ago, billvon said:

Storage - pumped, BESS, gravity, CAES.  Baseload generation from nuclear.  

Bill - the source article is a little confusing. Seems that most of the generation is from natural gas with much of it coming from the NE-ISO, not from in-state generation. I agree with Wendy that decentralization would be nice. The point being that the grid is still needed thus those pesky wires, complex combination of transformers, controllers, SCADA, trucks, people, etc., and the ongoing expense of making the grid operate. The various forms of storage are good for short duration, some are very short.

The point source solar systems work when the resource is available. They have about 30% solar availability which is just slightly less than in SC. What they also have is high electric rates, at ~ 20 cents/kWh, lucrative incentives, net metering and quite aggressive REC sales and values. That makes large scale solar quite lucrative. Combining all that gets them a payback of less than 10 years on a typical system. In SC the electric rates are 10-12 cents and the incentives are much lower. The payback is in the range of 8-10 years for large scale solar to never for residential solar (some residential paybacks are better but most are terrible).

One item of ongoing concern, and one that is a tangled mess to understand, is incentives and subsidies. No doubt the existing system is subsidized. It would be a great PhD candidate project to examine all the federal, local, tax, incentives, subsidies, and cash flows, to untangle that info. I'd luv to see the real numbers without that stuff.

Once energy storage, SMR's or some other technology becomes economical then the conventional grid won't be needed. That can then shift a ton of grid-expense money into the "new way" of electrifying stuff. It's coming.

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24 minutes ago, billeisele said:

Once energy storage, SMR's or some other technology becomes economical then the conventional grid won't be needed. That can then shift a ton of grid-expense money into the "new way" of electrifying stuff. It's coming.

so, every house and building having it's own storage system?  nice concept, but it seems like it would be very hard to retrofit the existing buildings with enough storage to satisfy the energy needs of the occupants.  that depends on the type of storage of course.  we will need a grid of some sort for a long time with the way things are going.  maybe about the time we convert from individual countries to one it will be ready. 

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40 minutes ago, sfzombie13 said:

so, every house and building having it's own storage system?  nice concept, but it seems like it would be very hard to retrofit the existing buildings with enough storage to satisfy the energy needs of the occupants.  that depends on the type of storage of course.  we will need a grid of some sort for a long time with the way things are going.  maybe about the time we convert from individual countries to one it will be ready. 

Will probably see a combination of storage technologies. At home, local and regional. This is much like we see with solar.

Storage is one step but reliable, safe and economical point source generation the another. That's where small modular reactors come into play. If that becomes feasible that is also a game changer.

The grid will be there, but if the technologies above come into play it will be quite different.

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I think you're absolutely right about that. Another thing that comes into play is the increasing energy-effectiveness of buildings. Including retrofitting older buildings to be more energy-efficient. Right now we tend to have a "I can afford it, so it's OK" approach to energy consumption. Kind of like the impact of recycling on trash streams (when it's practical).

The mantra is reduce, reuse, recycle -- with reduce being first for a reason. If a home is very energy-efficient, then not as much power is needed to maintain it regardless of anything. Same for energy -- if your house is tight and well-insulated, you don't need as much to heat it. If it's sited appropriately and shaded from the afternoon sun, you don't need as much to cool it. It'll never be perfect, but focusing on the lack of perfection to avoid making changes is, well, chickenshit.

Wendy P.

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12 hours ago, sfzombie13 said:

so, every house and building having it's own storage system? 

Within 20 years, most houses will have their own storage system.  It will be built into their EV or PHEV.  Today there are people driving Prius Primes who have no idea that they have an 8kwhr storage system built into their cars.

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9 hours ago, billvon said:

Within 20 years, most houses will have their own storage system.  It will be built into their EV or PHEV.  Today there are people driving Prius Primes who have no idea that they have an 8kwhr storage system built into their cars.

sounds like you've never been to rural wv.  my only vehicle right now is a 19 year old motorcycle.  my son inherited the truck i drive sometimes, it's older than him at 21.  maybe in ca it will be like that, but i seriously doubt everyone will have an ev, even there.  i've seen some parts of ca that are comparable to here. 

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16 hours ago, sfzombie13 said:

sounds like you've never been to rural wv. 

Well, I've spent a fair amount of time in Fayetteville.  I don't know if that counts as "rural."

But in any case, people everywhere buy cars.  They buy new cars or used cars.  As more and more people buy PHEV or EV cars, they will find themselves, whether they know it or not, with a largish battery.  This works with the grid in two ways:

1) Since they can choose their time to charge their vehicles, they will tend to choose times that are cheap.  Thus, as long as the utility gives them the right price signals, they will charge their cars when all that excess "unreliable" solar and wind power is available - thus using power that would otherwise be wasted.

2) Cars with a DC fast charging connection can do this bidirectionally - they can send power back to the grid as easily as they take power from the grid.  And companies like Nuuve are making chargers for EV's that do both things automatically via a normal level 2 charging connection.  These people will discover they can actually make money by sending power back to the grid during times that additional generation is needed.   And people like to make money.  (As an example, we had a pretty tight "flex alert" in San Diego last week - and I made $40 for two hours of backfeeding.)

Of course not everyone will participate.  Those rural West Virginians who live in 100 year old homes and drive 20 year old vehicles won't - but then again, they're also not using much power.  People in population centers will do this more often.

It is worthwhile to note that some of those rural West Virginians may get irate when they see power outages due to demand, line damage, shutdowns for fire prevention, extreme weather (which is on the increase) and other reasons.  And even those backwoods, never-buy-anything-new West Virginians may decide that they want their next car to be able to provide power when that happens.  Even if it's a 10 year old broken down Leaf.

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