siegfriedewargny 0 #1 Posted July 22, 2021 I would certainly not buy an Icon Icon I1 DOM 2020 French 4 way team.mp4 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
IJskonijn 38 #2 July 22, 2021 More of a hesitation than a total malfunction, but it's not a pretty sight... Any idea on what exactly caught on what and prevented the flaps from parting? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 259 #3 July 22, 2021 Thats a hesitation. A total is when nothing launches. Can't tell much since the video is from the front. From the side would be way more useful. A hesitation on the bench does not mean it will hesitate in freefall. Freefall is not static like laying on a bench is. If the jumper were to drop a shoulder should it happen in freefall (standard student training, yes?) the shifting of the container and additional airflow over the back will likely clear any hesitation. Just too many variables involved to be blaming the container without specifying exactly what caused the hesitation. Besides the fact that bench hesitations are not unusual on any container (per my master rigger husband with 6k repacks...). Is the closing loop the correct length? One that is too long could cause a hesitation. Are the canopies correctly sized for the container? Over or understuffing can create these sort of issues. More details and a video that actually shows something useful are needed if you are going to attempt to damn the container manufacturer for something that may not be a container issue. Especially on the internet... using a click bait title... in a forum frequented by noobs... 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BIGUN 1,042 #4 July 22, 2021 4 hours ago, siegfriedewargny said: I would certainly not buy an Icon So, you joined 4 hours ago to bash Icon? Welcome to the forums and thanks for your valuable insight. Perhaps you shouldn't buy any rig - they've all had reserve issues. Skydiving is not for everyone. 7 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
siegfriedewargny 0 #5 July 22, 2021 2 hours ago, IJskonijn said: More of a hesitation than a total malfunction, but it's not a pretty sight... Any idea on what exactly caught on what and prevented the flaps from parting? a hesitation which will fatal in case of AAD firing... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuckakers 369 #6 July 22, 2021 46 minutes ago, siegfriedewargny said: a hesitation which will fatal in case of AAD firing... How so? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #7 July 22, 2021 3 hours ago, skybytch said: "Thats a hesitation. A total is when nothing launches. ... Is the closing loop the correct length? One that is too long could cause a hesitation. ..." Eric Fradet identified that problem with Mirages a good 25 years ago. He found that if the reserve closing loop is more than 1/2" too long, it can get pinched between the rolled edges of grommets,, causing them to hesitate. The ideal closing loop is perfect or less than a 1/2" too long. Rigging Innovations struggle with a similar problem when we built a Telesis 1 container for retired President George Bush Senior. The main container was a variation of a design that we had built hundreds of for the US Air Force Academy, but it was even more complicated with an FXC 12000M, a chest-mounted ripcord (right MLW) and a second main ripcord on the lower left corner for the reserve side AFF instructor. After it hesitated - on the table - a few times, we eventually used the shortest possible, double-ended main closing loop. We activated it dozens of times on the ground before we got that spring-loaded main pilot-chute to deploy consistently. As the (President Bush Sr.) program neared completion, Sandy Reid told me "We will never build another rig like that." Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gowlerk 1,901 #8 July 22, 2021 (edited) 3 hours ago, siegfriedewargny said: a hesitation which will fatal in case of AAD firing... Nothing like a little drama to spice up a Friday morning. An AAD fire is not the same thing as a manual pin extraction. I don't know what your agenda is here, but baseless fear mongering is what you are doing. Edited July 22, 2021 by gowlerk 5 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
george rousseau 1 #9 July 23, 2021 16 hours ago, skybytch said: Thats a hesitation. A total is when nothing launches. Can't tell much since the video is from the front. From the side would be way more useful. A hesitation on the bench does not mean it will hesitate in freefall. Freefall is not static like laying on a bench is. If the jumper were to drop a shoulder should it happen in freefall (standard student training, yes?) the shifting of the container and additional airflow over the back will likely clear any hesitation. Just too many variables involved to be blaming the container without specifying exactly what caused the hesitation. Besides the fact that bench hesitations are not unusual on any container (per my master rigger husband with 6k repacks...). Is the closing loop the correct length? One that is too long could cause a hesitation. Are the canopies correctly sized for the container? Over or understuffing can create these sort of issues. More details and a video that actually shows something useful are needed if you are going to attempt to damn the container manufacturer for something that may not be a container issue. Especially on the internet... using a click bait title... in a forum frequented by noobs... you are correct, here is a reserve total malfunction with Icon, the rigger had time to take the rig off and picture it 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sfzombie13 307 #10 July 23, 2021 5 hours ago, george rousseau said: you are correct, here is a reserve total malfunction with Icon, the rigger had time to take the rig off and picture it that's even worse than the first video. hell, i can take a picture of my rig like that with the right shit stuffed inside. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BIGUN 1,042 #11 July 23, 2021 (edited) 4 hours ago, george rousseau said: you are correct, here is a reserve total malfunction with Icon, the rigger had time to take the rig off and picture it Oh lookie. Another sock puppet from France who also joined four hours ago to bash Icon on this site. How about you [BLANK] write up the necessary report to Icon instead of dragging them thru the mud. I jumped an Icon for years and had no such issue and at that time; never heard of one. Edited July 23, 2021 by BIGUN Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 259 #12 July 23, 2021 (edited) Nice picture. Might want to shorten up that closing loop. What did Aerodyne have to say about this? Edited July 23, 2021 by skybytch Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gowlerk 1,901 #13 July 23, 2021 (edited) Brand bashing is traditional here, and I see you have been on FB as well. It's nice to see a new target for a change. Edited July 23, 2021 by gowlerk 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,379 #14 July 23, 2021 23 hours ago, siegfriedewargny said: a hesitation which will fatal in case of AAD firing... Nope. Depending on where the cutter is mounted, you will see either the same hesitation or a shorter one. In general, AAD firings result in less loop to clear. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
carrier louis paul 0 #15 July 24, 2021 it definetly does not work properly.... icon_saumur_plantin_(2).mp4 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,114 #16 July 24, 2021 Do you have any explanations? There are a LOT of Icons out there that appear to work properly. Either this one has a unique defect, or it’s staged. It’s certainly not a systemic effect in a rig that’s been out that long. Wendy P. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
padalcek 9 #17 July 24, 2021 @carrier louis paul What was that piece of metal that flew off to the side when RPC launced? 5 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
eric.fradet 17 #18 July 24, 2021 On 7/22/2021 at 8:33 PM, riggerrob said: Eric Fradet identified that problem with Mirages a good 25 years ago. He found that if the reserve closing loop is more than 1/2" too long, it can get pinched between the rolled edges of grommets,, causing them to hesitate. The ideal closing loop is perfect or less than a 1/2" too long. Rigging Innovations struggle with a similar problem when we built a Telesis 1 container for retired President George Bush Senior. The main container was a variation of a design that we had built hundreds of for the US Air Force Academy, but it was even more complicated with an FXC 12000M, a chest-mounted ripcord (right MLW) and a second main ripcord on the lower left corner for the reserve side AFF instructor. After it hesitated - on the table - a few times, we eventually used the shortest possible, double-ended main closing loop. We activated it dozens of times on the ground before we got that spring-loaded main pilot-chute to deploy consistently. As the (President Bush Sr.) program neared completion, Sandy Reid told me "We will never build another rig like that." in fact, I found out what when the cutter location was below the reserve Pilot Chute, once the AAD fired : the cutten loop was too long in between the cutter location and the end of reserve Pilot Chute and had the tendency to keep all the reserve flaps locked together or at least slow down the reserve opening, it is the reason why the rigs manufacturers with reserve PC inside the container like Icon re-located their cutter above the PC. But in this Icon situation, the issue comes from the reserve pin cover flap which goes too deep inside his location, since Aerodyne changed the reserve cover pin flap length, and because these Aerodyne people have no brain, they did not think about it, since it does not work properly by pulling the reserve ripcord, it certainly does not open with and unconscious skydiver not knocking the reserve container... 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gowlerk 1,901 #19 July 25, 2021 21 hours ago, eric.fradet said: But in this Icon situation, the issue comes from the reserve pin cover flap which goes too deep inside his location, Is this not the same thing that was addressed in the recent AD issued for some student containers from UPT? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JerryBaumchen 1,046 #20 July 25, 2021 3 hours ago, gowlerk said: Is this not the same thing that was addressed in the recent AD issued for some student containers from UPT? Hi Ken, I would say, 'No.' The Vector has the reserve top flap going around & under the reserve internal flap. Whereas, the Icon ( and many other rigs ) has the reserve top flap 'tucked' into the bottom reserve flap. IMO each has a distinct design to 'hold' the reserve top flap. Jerry Baumchen 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
IJskonijn 38 #21 July 25, 2021 Agreed, the vector issue is different in a subtle way. And in these cases, the devil is in the details. As far as the Icon stuff going on here, with three newly-made accounts all offering unsubstantiated photo's/videos of icons not properly working, I'm smelling either a hidden agenda or a big pile of bullshit. Cough up the details, or get the f* out. 6 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lazdog23 7 #22 July 26, 2021 On 7/24/2021 at 1:39 AM, carrier louis paul said: it definetly does not work properly.... icon_saumur_plantin_(2).mp4 So what flies out of the reserve container and lays on the floor? Maybe if you dont pack your tools in the reserve tray it would open correctly. :) 4 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Unstable 8 #23 July 26, 2021 2 hours ago, lazdog23 said: So what flies out of the reserve container and lays on the floor? Maybe if you dont pack your tools in the reserve tray it would open correctly. :) Whatever it was, look how flat is is and how fast it fell. It has some mass/weight to it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiverek 54 #24 July 26, 2021 Similar situation analyzed here (9 years ago): https://www.flyaerodyne.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/TB_ReserveActivationEvaluation1112.pdf . 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BIGUN 1,042 #25 July 27, 2021 14 hours ago, skydiverek said: Similar situation analyzed here (9 years ago): It would seem there IS a process to report such occurrences other than throwing shit out on social media. </sarcasm> 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
