Woke is a Joke

[billvon 2,723]

4 hours ago, base698 said:

Growing up prior to 2010 I knew 3 trans people, one in college and 2 skydivers (if you discount drag shows I was in attendance).

You knew far more than that.  They just didn't come out to you.

Quote

Current Google numbers state something like a fraction of 1% identify as transgender.  IIRC in the past it was something like 1 in 30,0000.  At any rate it's probably between 1 in 100 and 1 in 30,000.  That is way way lower than 1 in 5 you see in some younger populations.

Right.  Younger people no longer see a reason to hide it.  Older people had VERY good reasons to hide it.

Quote

My argument was the current trans movement is trying to protect 1 in 100 at best at the expense of the 1 in 5.

So your argument that only 1 in 100 is a "real" trans person and the rest are fake?

Sounds like the older argument that most gay people aren't really gay, they are just making a choice in order to push a liberal agenda and piss off conservatives.  They could just decide not to be gay and the problem goes away!

[billvon 2,723]

3 hours ago, base698 said:

In the example above I noted lots of classes of trans people.  One of the many I noted were perverts.  These are trans only for the opportunity of invading women's spaces.  I allowed many other types of trans for a variety of reasons.

I don't care who's a pervert and who isn't.  You can think women who wear thigh-high boots or have sex with other women are perverts; that's fine.  That's an Overton window thing, and will change with time.

What I do care about is that people do not commit crimes, like invade private spaces for women.  And in that respect, cis men do FAR more of that than trans women.  Heck, Trump bragged about doing it, and Howard Stern (who he was talking to) thought it was great.  And later we learned that he did that to underage women as well.

If keeping men out of women's rooms is your goal, you are aiming at the wrong target.

https://lawandcrime.com/crime/mississippi-man-brutally-attacked-and-raped-woman-in-bathroom-stall-at-mall-police/

https://www.fox5atlanta.com/news/fulton-county-courthouse-bathroom-assault-suspect-arrest

https://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/philly-police-investigate-sex-assault-inside-center-city-macys/2714967/

https://www.businessinsider.com/donald-trump-rape-e-jean-carroll-sexual-abuse-jury-judge-2023-7

[gowlerk 2,096]

9 minutes ago, billvon said:

Sounds like the older argument that most gay people aren't really gay, they are just making a choice in order to push a liberal agenda and piss off conservatives. 

Transphobia? The fear that allowing this sort of behavior is going to undermine their society and even worse, make them feel uncomfortable possibly even self conscious. 

[tkhayes 255]

17 hours ago, base698 said:

....a 6'2" 230 lbs dude in the women's room....

Which tells us everything we need to know about your level of knowledge of any of the issues and clearly demonstrates your open and willing bias.

.... if you want 11 years olds to carry babies to term and forcibly become mothers....

.... if you want 16 year olds to openly carry AR-15s in public.....

and so on.  If you want to be ridiculous and post rhetoric like a five year old, then you can expect us to treat you like you are just that.

[billvon 2,723]

50 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

Transphobia? The fear that allowing this sort of behavior is going to undermine their society and even worse, make them feel uncomfortable possibly even self conscious. 

And take away their status as the very definition of what's right and normal.  (At least, as long as no one looks too closely.)

[kallend 1,822]

6 hours ago, olofscience said:

When I see women's spaces being invaded, 100% of the time it's by men, not trans women.

A lot of men are perverts and most of them don't bother all that trouble of transitioning just for invading women's spaces - they just invade them.

 

 

The Access Hollywood tape even has a man bragging about doing it.

 

[wolfriverjoe 1,460]

4 hours ago, nigel99 said:

 

If I get your argument correctly, it would appear that you would likely disagree with age of consent laws, drinking age, tattoos and voting age laws? If not then what is the difference and how do you justify that you could change gender but not be mature enough for the others?

No. 'Age of consent' laws cover just that - consensual behavior. 

Stuff that is a choice.

However, gender dysphoria is a psychological condition.  

Not treating it properly has all sorts of consequences.  Suicide is just one of them. 

To allow a minor to begin to transition,  under the supervision of a medical professional, is quite a bit different. 

 

You have to remember that this isn't something that people  'just do'. Even for adults,  there's a process to ensure that the person is genuinely trans, not being 'just fashionable'.

Denying those kids proper care isn't any different than pretending that bipolar, depression or schizophrenia aren't real in kids.

[base698 3]

15 hours ago, tkhayes said:

.

.... if you want 11 years olds to carry babies to term and forcibly become mothers....

.... if you want 16 year olds to openly carry AR-15s in public.....

Where was any of this mentioned in this thread?

[base698 3]

16 hours ago, billvon said:

 

  ...

Edited August 15 by base698

[tkhayes 255]

5 hours ago, base698 said:

Where was any of this mentioned in this thread?

it was offered as equally valid rhetoric examples of absurdity

[GeorgiaDon 355]

17 hours ago, wolfriverjoe said:

No. 'Age of consent' laws cover just that - consensual behavior. 

Stuff that is a choice.

However, gender dysphoria is a psychological condition.  

Not treating it properly has all sorts of consequences.  Suicide is just one of them. 

To allow a minor to begin to transition,  under the supervision of a medical professional, is quite a bit different. 

 

You have to remember that this isn't something that people  'just do'. Even for adults,  there's a process to ensure that the person is genuinely trans, not being 'just fashionable'.

Denying those kids proper care isn't any different than pretending that bipolar, depression or schizophrenia aren't real in kids.

I have a nephew who suffered from gender dysphoria for many years, beginning well before their teens.  Now in their 20s, they went through hormone treatment and recently underwent surgery to complete the transition to female, at least externally.  Although they still have work to do psychologically, it's mostly to deal with damage done by years of dysphoria and the social stigma that comes with that.  At least we no longer have to worry constantly about suicide.  I find it interesting that before any hormone treatment was started it was determined that the male bits they were born with were never able to produce sperm, which suggests that they were never a fully functional male and the dysphoria may well have had a physiological basis.  I know that I, personally, never made a choice as to my gender identity, it was "built in" by a combination of genetics and hormone environment during development.  I assume the same is true of everyone else.  It is absurd to assume that other people consciously choose their gender, and even more so to assume people choose an identity that often results in a lifetime of suffering.

[billvon 2,723]

Yeah.

What bothers me the most about all this hand-wringing over "oh the poor CHILDREN!" is that the very same conservatives would think nothing of getting their child life-altering irreversible surgery if it made them more cis, or prettier, or made them feel better about themselves, or got kids to stop teasing them.  For kids aged 13-19, per year, there are:

~ 6000 breast reductions for girls
~ 3000 breast reductions for boys
~ 1300 breast lifts
~ 3000 liposuctions
~ 350 labiaplastys

And the only time it's an issue is if the kid is trans.  That's a pretty big level of hypocrisy.

[gowlerk 2,096]

1 hour ago, GeorgiaDon said:

It is absurd to assume that other people consciously choose their gender, and even more so to assume people choose an identity that often results in a lifetime of suffering.

Not even to be "fashionable"? Some of the things I've seen people who don't really have a clue about how hard this is on those who are suffering are indeed just plain absurd. 

[GeorgiaDon 355]

It seems to me many conservatives are hung up on conformity.  We all should be straight, gun-toting, country music loving, American-speaking evangelical Christian baby-making machines.  Maybe we don't all have to be white, but it's expected that we should all act white (no "ghetto music", no funny hair styles etc).  Maybe it's a control thing, any life choices or actions that are different from theirs is somehow threatening, and must be eradicated.  Personally I would find a society that has total uniformity to be painfully boring.

[gowlerk 2,096]

17 minutes ago, GeorgiaDon said:

It seems to me many conservatives are hung up on conformity.  We all should be straight, gun-toting, country music loving, American-speaking evangelical Christian baby-making machines.  Maybe we don't all have to be white, but it's expected that we should all act white (no "ghetto music", no funny hair styles etc).  Maybe it's a control thing, any life choices or actions that are different from theirs is somehow threatening, and must be eradicated.  Personally I would find a society that has total uniformity to be painfully boring.

Even if it was more uniform the same people would be up in arms over theology and what branch others belong to. It has always been the same, only the names have changed. 

[ryoder 1,547]

2 hours ago, gowlerk said:

Even if it was more uniform the same people would be up in arms over theology and what branch others belong to. It has always been the same, only the names have changed. 

Die, Heretic!!!

 

Edited August 15 by ryoder

[JoeWeber 2,561]

12 hours ago, GeorgiaDon said:

It seems to me many conservatives are hung up on conformity.  We all should be straight, gun-toting, country music loving, American-speaking evangelical Christian baby-making machines.

It doesn't only seem to you. How anyone can fervently believe that we are the epitome of creation or evolution is just maddening. I doubt humanity will make it another thousand years.

[JerryBaumchen 1,261]

On 8/13/2024 at 10:54 AM, billvon said:

Yep.  So did gay rights.  And we are now in the middle of the battle for trans rights.

Couldn't parse that.  If you mean we are living in history right now, that's always true.  And the battle for rights has never been easy, or quick, or without people believing that if you give someone else more rights, they have less rights.

Hi Bill,

Re:  And the battle for rights has never been easy, or quick, or without people believing that if you give someone else more rights, they have less rights.

A few months ago [ maybe more, but who is counting ], I read an article that the Equal Rights Amendment was still out there waiting on just two more states to ratify it.  If that happens, then the Constitution will be changed.

About the only thing that happens fast is conception.

Everything else takes time.

Jerry Baumchen

[JerryBaumchen 1,261]

On 8/13/2024 at 5:02 PM, base698 said:

If you want a 6'2" 230 lbs dude in the women's room I can see why you're so defensive.  It's typically used in that context.  

Hi base,

You should get out more.

I have been to countries where both sexes use the same restroom; and the same stalls; not at the same time.  At first I was taken aback.  Then I realized it was Go With the Flow or hold it.

I adjusted just fine; and, so will you if you ever are in that situation.

Jerry Baumchen

[JerryBaumchen 1,261]

On 8/14/2024 at 6:46 AM, wolfriverjoe said:

Well, I still really haven't figured out what I want to be 'when I grow up', but there were certain things that I knew at a fairly young age. 

I discovered that girls were soft, pretty and smelled nice in about 4th grade. 

This was never a 'decision', it was just what was (for me).

There should be a thorough evaluation process (which is well established) before any medical treatment,  but to pretend that:

 

1 - they don't know or understand how they feel 

 

2 - they're doing it 'for attention' or 'because it's fashionable' 

 

Is really stupid.

Funny how most of the people who maintain those attitudes are (by your own admission) either older and closed minded or blatant bigots.

I'd bet you knew a LOT more trans people than that.  They just kept it quiet.

Hi Joe,

Re:  I'd bet you knew a LOT more trans people than that.  They just kept it quiet.

IMO we all know a whole lot of people of every category there is.  We just do not about their personal life [ unless they tell us ]; and, that is how it should be.

I really do not give a damn about how my neighbors have sex; nor, should I.

Jerry Baumchen

 

[richravizza 26]

 

On 8/14/2024 at 2:26 PM, wolfriverjoe said:

No. 'Age of consent' laws cover just that - consensual behavior. 

Stuff that is a choice.

However, gender dysphoria is a psychological condition.  

Not treating it properly has all sorts of consequences.  Suicide is just one of them. 

To allow a minor to begin to transition,  under the supervision of a medical professional, is quite a bit different. 

 

You have to remember that this isn't something that people  'just do'. Even for adults,  there's a process to ensure that the person is genuinely trans, not being 'just fashionable'.

Denying those kids proper care isn't any different than pretending that bipolar, depression or schizophrenia aren't real in kids.

 My goodness I see you did not review the WPATH files or bother with the Cass report,Pity.

So your Fashionably Irrational Beliefs go on.I wonder what happens when your "professionals" are wrong. LOL 

It wouldn't be the first.

https://gazette.com/news/wex/plastic-surgeons-association-breaks-with-medical-establishment-on-child-gender-transitions/article_8f4af732-387d-5435-a5f4-b8e2877df8ce.html

 

Edited August 20 by richravizza

[richravizza 26]

On 8/14/2024 at 2:24 PM, kallend said:

The Access Hollywood tape even has a man bragging about doing it.

 

You can do anything... I see the similarity.

 

[richravizza 26]

On 8/15/2024 at 9:48 AM, GeorgiaDon said:

It seems to me many conservatives are hung up on conformity.  We all should be straight, gun-toting, country music loving, American-speaking evangelical Christian baby-making machines.  Maybe we don't all have to be white, but it's expected that we should all act white (no "ghetto music", no funny hair styles etc).  Maybe it's a control thing, any life choices or actions that are different from theirs is somehow threatening, and must be eradicated.  Personally I would find a society that has total uniformity to be painfully boring.

 You wouldn't know a Conservative if one bit you on your ass.LOL

Besides, we come in every color of the rainbow,not quite the "other" enemy they taught you to hate.I came to hand out smiles and humor, lighten the mood, and somehow after reading it turned malignant, wonder how that happened.Back in the day when someone had such a narrow, microscopic perspective of millions.We called it prejudice, a nice way to call out those absurdities.

Smiles all around ...No WAP

Expedite to 5:00  laughs chorus and refrain.Ben, the only person I know that has to go half time and slow down to rap.

 

[kallend 1,822]

1 hour ago, richravizza said:

You can do anything... I see the similarity.

<irrelevant garbage deleted>

 

I'm sure many people are as lewd, disgusting and criminal as Trump.  But there's no similarity, he's the only one of them running for President of the USA.

[billvon 2,723]

1 hour ago, richravizza said:

You can do anything... I see the similarity.

Right.  Because to conservatives, sexual assault is just like a woman seeing a man in a spa.

A classic case of "whataboutism."