Woke is a Joke

[base698 3]

1 hour ago, tkhayes said:

You can choose to just not listen to it.

LOL.  Every corporate job, practically every ad campaign has woke stuff now.  Though it has backed off a touch from 2020 highs.

Avoiding it is still impossible.

[base698 3]

42 minutes ago, billvon said:

In the future, post an opinion to go along with it.

I thought it was notable a magazine like the Atlantic would publish anything like this.  Two years ago you'd never see an article in the corporate press mentioning Europe has backed off puberty blockers, or any such dissenting opinion. 

[billvon 2,739]

32 minutes ago, base698 said:

The Atlantic is far-right?

The Atlantic publishes editorials from a wide variety of authors.  This author is a neoconservative.

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Every corporate job, practically every ad campaign has woke stuff now. 

And has for a few hundred years now.  100 years ago it was a picture in a newspaper showing a black person in an office.  Woke madness!  50 years ago it was a hospital employing a woman doctor.  More woke madness!  35 years ago it was showing two women kissing on LA Law.  Shoving it down our throats!  And companies followed suit.

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Two years ago you'd never see an article in the corporate press mentioning Europe has backed off puberty blockers, or any such dissenting opinion. 

NYT 2022: "The questions are fueling government reviews in Europe, prompting a push for more research and leading some prominent specialists to reconsider at what age to prescribe them and for how long. A small number of doctors won’t recommend them at all."

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/14/health/puberty-blockers-transgender.html

 

[gowlerk 2,103]

50 minutes ago, base698 said:

The Atlantic is far-right?

From the Atlantic here is a list of the articles from this author. It would appear that he believes there is no longer a need to advocate for gay rights and has been writing about that for a few years now. A few people are wondering what you are trying to say. So What are you trying to say?

https://www.theatlantic.com/author/james-kirchick/

And here is more of his bio...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Kirchick

Edited August 13 by gowlerk

[winsor 224]

53 minutes ago, base698 said:

The Atlantic is far-right?

To some, "Quotations from Chairman Mao" is reactionary.

[base698 3]

13 minutes ago, billvon said:

And has for a few hundred years now.  100 years ago it was a picture in a newspaper showing a black person in an office.  Woke madness!  50 years ago it was a hospital employing a woman doctor.  More woke madness!  35 years ago it was showing two women kissing on LA Law.  Shoving it down our throats!  And companies followed suit.

You are thinking past the sale.  Those movements had long fought battles. 

Despite your assumptions we live in Whig history there is no reason we couldn't start following the Taliban and throwing people off roofs.

[normiss 726]

7 minutes ago, base698 said:

You are thinking past the sale.  Those movements had long fought battles. 

Despite your assumptions we live in Whig history there is no reason we couldn't start following the Taliban and throwing people off roofs.

Americans call it "Project 2025", the American Sharia Law.

[billvon 2,739]

10 minutes ago, base698 said:

Those movements had long fought battles. 

Yep.  So did gay rights.  And we are now in the middle of the battle for trans rights.

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Despite your assumptions we live in Whig history there is no reason we couldn't start following the Taliban and throwing people off roofs.

Couldn't parse that.  If you mean we are living in history right now, that's always true.  And the battle for rights has never been easy, or quick, or without people believing that if you give someone else more rights, they have less rights.

[gowlerk 2,103]

17 minutes ago, billvon said:

If you mean we are living in history right now, that's always true.  And the battle for rights has never been easy, or quick, or without people believing that if you give someone else more rights, they have less rights.

Hasn't the US recently had a serious rollback of reproductive choice rights? Is there not a "anti-woke" movement? Those who think the battles are won have never actually had to fight.

[JoeWeber 2,571]

34 minutes ago, base698 said:

there is no reason we couldn't start following the Taliban and throwing people off roofs.

Now wouldn't that be pleasing to some who are so fraught with gay concerns? Just for the sake of understanding could you please tell me just which gay or woke rights are wrecking your days? 

[gowlerk 2,103]

Just now, JoeWeber said:

Now wouldn't that be pleasing to some who are so fraught with gay concerns? Just for the sake of understanding could you please tell me just which gay or woke rights are wrecking your days? 

I'll bet you a jump ticket that he doesn't dare to state what has him all puckered up.

[billvon 2,739]

25 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

Those who think the battles are won have never actually had to fight.

Yep.  Or put another way -

If you think giving rights to other people will erode yours, it's not equal rights that you want - it's privilege.

[tkhayes 273]

1 hour ago, billvon said:

The Atlantic publishes editorials from a wide variety of authors.  This author is a neoconservative.

And has for a few hundred years now.  100 years ago it was a picture in a newspaper showing a black person in an office.  Woke madness!  50 years ago it was a hospital employing a woman doctor.  More woke madness!  35 years ago it was showing two women kissing on LA Law.  Shoving it down our throats!  And companies followed suit.

NYT 2022: "The questions are fueling government reviews in Europe, prompting a push for more research and leading some prominent specialists to reconsider at what age to prescribe them and for how long. A small number of doctors won’t recommend them at all."

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/14/health/puberty-blockers-transgender.html

 

Puberty blockers: What to know about the lifesaving medication for gender diverse kids | CNN - An incredibly small number of kids are using puberty blockers.  A fraction of the number of people that are, for example, killed and injured in gun violence every year.

Not sure how outraged I am expected to be about kids, their doctors, their parents, and the decisions that are made within the confines of these groups, especially when it is none of my fucking business.

Also have no idea how ANY of those decisions affect me, my family, my life, your life, anyone's life, any family.... and so on.... especially when it is no one's fucking business, except those involved.

[JoeWeber 2,571]

32 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

I'll bet you a jump ticket that he doesn't dare to state what has him all puckered up.

I can't take the bet because I really want to know what gay people are doing to some folks that has them so concerned. Are they doing it to you? I don't think they're doing it to me but maybe if I paid closer attention I'd know if they were doing it to me. But maybe you can't tell for sure even when on the look out so you need to be concerned and worried at all times. 

[gowlerk 2,103]

8 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

I don't think they're doing it to me but maybe if I paid closer attention I'd know if they were doing it to me.

There are known unknowns and then there are the more serious unknown unknowns. All I know is that so far I've been able to resist buying a pink, or even a rainbow jumpsuit. But I do have a real cute pink dress shirt that some people have complimented me on so maybe I'm in danger of being influenced into playing at least part time for the other team without even knowing it. Scary stuff.

[billvon 2,739]

32 minutes ago, tkhayes said:

Puberty blockers: What to know about the lifesaving medication for gender diverse kids | CNN - An incredibly small number of kids are using puberty blockers.  A fraction of the number of people that are, for example, killed and injured in gun violence every year.

Indeed.  And since puberty blockers are often used so that the kid can reach the age of 18 and then decide for himself, you would think all the "trans surgery is MUTILATING KIDS!" types would support that use as an alternative.

[wolfriverjoe 1,464]

59 minutes ago, billvon said:

Indeed.  And since puberty blockers are often used so that the kid can reach the age of 18 and then decide for himself, you would think all the "trans surgery is MUTILATING KIDS!" types would support that use as an alternative.

Oh please.

Those 'types' oppose ANYTHING  makes that makes the lives of 'those people' better or easier.

[base698 3]

3 hours ago, billvon said:

Couldn't parse that.  If you mean we are living in history right now, that's always true. 

Put another way, you are treating the civil rights of several groups as if they are the same and assuming there is some linear movement in terms of rights of these groups.  It's not clear to me that's a fair comparison or correct 

Just looking at trans as an umbrella there are dozens of different groups. There are several studies that show a teenage girl that would have had anorexia in 2010 is now identifying as a boy.  There are also legitimate homosexuals that will grow out of their gender associations.  There are the perverts, men identifying as women to gain access to women's spaces. Finally, there are legitimate conditions like Androgen insensitivity, various chromosome abnormalities, and gender dysphoria.

I'm not clear any of them deserve extra or equal treatment or should be encouraged.  I have a friend with a 13 year old daughter.  Five of her classmates in a class of 25 came out as trans. That looks like something in the environment is encouraging it and not something that's equivalent to what African Americans experienced in the sixties.

[base698 3]

2 hours ago, tkhayes said:

Also have no idea how ANY of those decisions affect me, my family, my life, your life, anyone's life, any family.... and so on.... especially when it is no one's fucking business, except those involved.

Because you live in a society.  Your actions are observed and interpreted by others.  

[Phil1111 1,086]

4 minutes ago, base698 said:

... I have a friend with a 13 year old daughter.  Five of her classmates in a class of 25 came out as trans. That looks like something in the environment is encouraging it and not something that's equivalent to what African Americans experienced in the sixties.

Do you think its contagious? Viral?

[base698 3]

6 minutes ago, Phil1111 said:

Do you think its contagious? Viral?

Tiktok viral.

[billvon 2,739]

4 minutes ago, base698 said:

Put another way, you are treating the civil rights of several groups as if they are the same and assuming there is some linear movement in terms of rights of these groups. 

I am neither doing that nor assuming that.

Every group out there has had its own challenges.  Black people can't hide being black. but gay people can hide being gay.  That's a very fundamental difference between the two groups, and why (for example) coming out of the closet is a thing for gay people and not black people.  There was also a systemic, organized and legal method to enslave blacks in place; there was nothing like that for gay people, other than laws making it illegal to be gay.  (Which, as mentioned, you could avoid by not being gay in public.)  As a result, "pride" is an important concept for gay people; they don't have to hide any more and be ashamed of who they are.

Nor is the movement linear or even monotonic.  Women's rights took a few steps back over the past few years, for example.

But, from a 10,000 foot perspective, things are gradually getting better for most groups.

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Just looking at trans as an umbrella there are dozens of different groups. There are several studies that show a teenage girl that would have had anorexia in 2010 is now identifying as a boy.  

I'm sure that happens - but I'm not sure what the relevance is here.

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There are also legitimate homosexuals

"Legitimate" as approved by who?

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There are the perverts, men identifying as women to gain access to women's spaces. 

Yes there are, although there are FAR more men identifying as men to gain access to women's spaces.  The republican presidential nominee, for example.

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I'm not clear any of them deserve extra or equal treatment or should be encouraged.

You're not sure "legitimate homosexuals" (whatever that means) deserve equal treatment to straight people?  Sorry, going to have to agree to disagree.

Or are you not sure that criminals should be treated the same as non-criminals?  If that's the case, agreed 100%.  Treat them differently - because one is a criminal.  But that isn't an LGBT issue.

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 Five of her classmates in a class of 25 came out as trans. That looks like something in the environment is encouraging it and not something that's equivalent to what African Americans experienced in the sixties.

Agreed; as I mentioned earlier, you can pretend to be cis but you can't pretend to be white, so it's fundamentally different.

A better comparison is the number of women in college who recently decided they were gay or bi (as defined by having desires for the same sex.).  In 2008, 3% of women aged 18-34 identified as bisexual. In 2018, it was 12% of women.  Today it's close to 15%.  Which would be 4 of her classmates.  By the time your friend's 13 year old daughter gets into that age range, I'm sure it will be close to 5 of 25 as well.

And yet society did not collapse, and indeed, nothing bad has come of it.  Just people more free to express what they feel.

[base698 3]

27 minutes ago, billvon said:

I'm sure that happens - but I'm not sure what the relevance is here

I was talking totally about trans only.   Under the tra s umbrella there are at least two groups susceptible to social pressure.  One a homosexual who would rather change genders than endure social pressure as well as, girls identifying as boys to get attention.

I was stating encouraging trans and being accepting at the broad level may be at the expense of those two groups since they seem to be in much larger numbers than legitimate trans.  In addition, there are malevolent groups within the umbrella that should also not be encouraged.

 

[wolfriverjoe 1,464]

1 minute ago, base698 said:

I was talking totally about trans only.   Under the tra s umbrella there are at least two groups susceptible to social pressure.  One a homosexual who would rather change genders than endure social pressure as well as, girls identifying as boys to get attention.

I was stating encouraging trans and being accepting at the broad level may be at the expense of those two groups since they seem to be in much larger numbers than legitimate trans.  In addition, there are malevolent groups within the umbrella that should also not be encouraged.

 

You think identifying as trans has less social pressures and stigma than being homosexual?

Seriously?

[billvon 2,739]

2 minutes ago, base698 said:

I was stating encouraging trans and being accepting at the broad level may be at the expense of those two groups since they seem to be in much larger numbers than legitimate trans. 

So the two groups you are talking about are:

1) "a teenage girl that would have had anorexia in 2010 is now identifying as a boy."  If, instead of becoming anorexic, that girl now becomes nonbinary - or identifies as male - instead because that's what they really want, that would seem to be a big benefit to that person. Anorexia can be deadly.

2) "There are also legitimate homosexuals that will grow out of their gender associations."  Agreed.  But there are straight people who will also grow out of their gender associations, so I am not sure how homosexuality plays into it.  

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In addition, there are malevolent groups within the umbrella that should also not be encouraged.

Of course.  But that's true of every group out there - gun owners, farmers, veterans, doctors, you name it.  Every single group has bad actors that we deal with through the legal system.  I don't see this as any different.