Woke is a Joke

[lippy 897]

2 hours ago, riggerrob said:

Agreed!

Since no-one has taken the time to explain “woke” ideology to me. I remain confused. From a distance, “woke” ideology resembles Marxism. As a self-identifying member of the “lumpen proletariat” I fear the “dictatorship of the proletariat” that is an integral stage of Marxist/Leninist Revolutions.

Winsor, is that you????

[billvon 2,885]

1 hour ago, gowlerk said:

In what way? This is a new take on it to me. I don't think even the right wing culture warriors who created the controversy for political reason have been saying that.

Oh give them a few weeks.  Heck, I'm surprised that they haven't defined woke as pedophilia yet.

[kallend 1,934]

3 hours ago, riggerrob said:

Agreed!

Since no-one has taken the time to explain “woke” ideology to me. I remain confused. From a distance, “woke” ideology resembles Marxism. As a self-identifying member of the “lumpen proletariat” I fear the “dictatorship of the proletariat” that is an integral stage of Marxist/Leninist Revolutions.

It is possible to learn something without the need for someone to take the time to explain it to you.  Books, dictionaries, even YouTube...., are sources of information.

[riggerrob 624]

3 hours ago, kallend said:

It is possible to learn something without the need for someone to take the time to explain it to you.  Books, dictionaries, even YouTube...., are sources of information.

“Woke” people have had many years to explain their objectives. They have forced me to listen to thousands of hours of pro-woke propaganda, but they have done a poor job of explaining their objectives.

Why should I care about gays when they do not invite me into their beds?

Why should I care about lesbians when they do not invite me into their beds?

Why should I care about trans-people when I have only met two and neither of them invited me into their beds?

Please be clear that I do not want a return to “the good old days” of bullying gays.

But I am waiting for “woke” people to explain why I should care.

[JerryBaumchen 1,334]

2 minutes ago, riggerrob said:

“Woke” people have had many years to explain their objectives. They have forced me to listen to thousands of hours of pro-woke propaganda, but they have done a poor job of explaining their objectives.

Why should I care about gays when they do not invite me into their beds?

Why should I care about lesbians when they do not invite me into their beds?

Why should I care about trans-people when I have only met two and neither of them invited me into their beds?

Please be clear that I do not want a return to “the good old days” of bullying gays.

But I am waiting for “woke” people to explain why I should care.

Hi Rob,

You do need to care.  It is a personal choice.

Jerry Baumchen

[wmw999 2,378]

10 minutes ago, riggerrob said:

“Woke” people have had many years to explain their objectives. They have forced me to listen to thousands of hours of pro-woke propaganda, but they have done a poor job of explaining their objectives.

Why should I care about gays when they do not invite me into their beds?

Why should I care about lesbians when they do not invite me into their beds?

Why should I care about trans-people when I have only met two and neither of them invited me into their beds?

Please be clear that I do not want a return to “the good old days” of bullying gays.

But I am waiting for “woke” people to explain why I should care.

Because you’re basically a polite person. Being woke doesn’t mean you can’t call an asshole an asshole, but does the fact that heterosexual people don’t in invite you into their beds mean that you aren’t polite? If a deaf person doesn’t invite you into their bed does that mean that you say “fucking listen to me!”?

Woke is just another word for “polite even if I’m not scared of the consequences of not being polite,” or “polite because I choose to, rather than have to.”

Wendy P. 

[wolfriverjoe 1,495]

22 minutes ago, riggerrob said:

..But I am waiting for “woke” people to explain why I should care.

Because that's what a decent human being does?

One of the best ways to judge someone's character is by how they treat people who have no ability to retaliate.

Wait staff. Checkout clerks. That sort.

Decent people treat them...
Decently.

'Woke' is when you speak up against those who treat the vulnerable like shit.

[billvon 2,885]

1 hour ago, riggerrob said:

“Woke” people have had many years to explain their objectives.

And I have, over and over.  I want to better understand the barriers some people face in society, and hopefully make it fairer for everyone.

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Why should I care about gays when they do not invite me into their beds?

I guess for the same reason anyone cares about their friends.  Even if they don't want to have sex with you.

Quote

Why should I care about lesbians when they do not invite me into their beds?

I guess for the same reason anyone cares about their friends.  Even if they don't want to have sex with you.

Quote

Why should I care about trans-people when I have only met two and neither of them invited me into their beds?

I guess for the same reason anyone cares about their friends.  Even if they don't want to have sex with you.

Just as a specific example - I have a good friend who is trans.  She doesn't want to have sex with me.  But I have taken the opportunity to learn about what she faces; the bathroom police in North Carolina, the people who try to deadname her, the standard biases she faces as a woman.  It's helped me better understand her, and understanding your friends is, IMO, a good thing.

Quote

But I am waiting for “woke” people to explain why I should care.

?? You don't have to.  You can live as Winsor and many others do, and assume that the world is against you; that blacks, gays, trans people etc have more rights and privileges than you do, and your demographic is the aggrieved party whom everyone is discriminating against.  It's a comfortable way to live, because that way you can chalk up any of your own failures to a society that wants to keep you down in favor of your lessers.  I know a lot of people like this.

Or you can assume that there is no bias at all, no barriers at all, and no injustice at all, and thus you don't need to understand anything about any of that.  It's all been solved, and has been since 1865.  I know a few people like this.

I prefer a more realistic view of society - but again, you don't need to see that.

[JoeWeber 2,678]

2 hours ago, riggerrob said:

“Woke” people have had many years to explain their objectives. They have forced me to listen to thousands of hours of pro-woke propaganda, but they have done a poor job of explaining their objectives.

Why should I care about gays when they do not invite me into their beds?

Why should I care about lesbians when they do not invite me into their beds?

Why should I care about trans-people when I have only met two and neither of them invited me into their beds?

Please be clear that I do not want a return to “the good old days” of bullying gays.

But I am waiting for “woke” people to explain why I should care.

Rob, I am sorry brother but I am embarrassed for you. As someone who has persistently argued for empathy from us and others because of your own personal tragedy and psychological harms I would never have imagined that when it comes to feeling empathy about others you could be so empty and blind. Truly, you need to do some serious soul searching.

[jakee 1,429]

4 hours ago, riggerrob said:

“Woke” people have had many years to explain their objectives. They have forced me to listen to thousands of hours of pro-woke propaganda, 

That’s just not true though, is it?

4 hours ago, riggerrob said:

but they have done a poor job of explaining their objectives.

What did they say?

4 hours ago, riggerrob said:

Please be clear that I do not want a return to “the good old days” of bullying gays.

But I am waiting for “woke” people to explain why I should care.

We moved away from the worst days of bullying gays because non-gay people started to care.

Which is not a form of Marxism.

[kallend 1,934]

12 hours ago, riggerrob said:

 

Why should I care  

Why should I care  

Why should I care  

 

But I am waiting for “woke” people to explain why I should care.

Because decent human beings care.  It should need explaining.  Unfortunately some people need to have basic human decency explained to them.

[winsor 234]

14 hours ago, wmw999 said:

Because you’re basically a polite person. Being woke doesn’t mean you can’t call an asshole an asshole, but does the fact that heterosexual people don’t in invite you into their beds mean that you aren’t polite? If a deaf person doesn’t invite you into their bed does that mean that you say “fucking listen to me!”?

Woke is just another word for “polite even if I’m not scared of the consequences of not being polite,” or “polite because I choose to, rather than have to.”

Wendy P. 

You don't think that he was being the tiniest bit facetious?

If someone "identifies" as something or another, opinions vary as to the extent to which one should humor them. The NAACP bigwig that took a lot of flack because she had 100% European bloodlines had at least as good a case as someone who "identifies" as a sex other than the one revealed by a basic blood test.

Edited August 2 by winsor

[riggerrob 624]

18 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

Rob, I am sorry brother but I am embarrassed for you. As someone who has persistently argued for empathy from us and others because of your own personal tragedy and psychological harms I would never have imagined that when it comes to feeling empathy about others you could be so empty and blind. Truly, you need to do some serious soul searching.

Joe ...

Perhaps I adopted "when in doubt, be polite" so many decades ago that it is my standard practice and I just do not understand why anyone would waster time chewing out others for .........

For a few years I relished the thought of chewing out lawyers, but now understand that lawyers are beyond hope ... er ... lawyers are too narrow-minded to understand the bigger picture. Lawyers are not bright enough to learn from experience. Lawyers are far too self-centered to care whether the wounded live or die. Me chewing out a lawyer would no change their world-view .... BUT ... it might cause me to "stroke out."

[jakee 1,429]

4 minutes ago, riggerrob said:

Joe ...

Perhaps I adopted "when in doubt, be polite" so many decades ago that it is my standard practice and I just do not understand why anyone would waster time chewing out others for .........

So why is it that because you don't understand why they would waste their time, you think them wasting their time is Marxist?

[riggerrob 624]

Jakee,

I suspect Marxism because they are trying to de-stabilize our current society and reduce faith in our political systems. Look at how Russian society was destabilized by World War 1 ... destabilized so badly that the old Tsarist regime collapsed to be replaced by a Marxist/Leninist gov't that only lasted 70-ish years before it too collapsed.

Mainland China had an even shorter experiment with Marxism/Leninism/Maoism that took power in 1949, but  has largely disappearred by now. China may be ruled by the totalitarian Chinese Communist Party, but their economy is a long way from traditional Marxism.

My question is: if Marxism and Maoism have both failed, why do we need them in Western society?

As a self-identifying member of the lumpen proletariat, I fear the whole "dictatorship of the proletariat" phase.

[jakee 1,429]

10 minutes ago, riggerrob said:

Jakee,

I suspect Marxism because they are trying to de-stabilize our current society and reduce faith in our political systems. Look at how Russian society was destabilized by World War 1 ... destabilized so badly that the old Tsarist regime collapsed to be replaced by a Marxist/Leninist gov't that only lasted 70-ish years before it too collapsed.

Ah, now we're getting somewhere - so there's nothing about wokeness itself that you think is remotely Marxist, you're just worried about destabilisation being a Marxist ploy?

Well ok then: First, WW1 wasn't started by Marxists. Second, German society was pretty well destabilised too, and they didn't turn to Marxism. So why pick Marxism as the inevitable result of any destabilisation? Third, they're not trying to destabilise society anyway.

On the other hand, Maga is definitely trying to destabilise society and on Jan 6th they almost succeeded - so is Donald Trump Marxist? His anti-woke VP pick JD Vance thinks the government should seize the assets of politically undesireable companies and redistribute them to the people. That's more or less the dictionary definition of Marxism. So why are you worried about the other guys?

Quote

My question is: if Marxism and Maoism have both failed, why do we need them in Western society?

Apart from JD Vance, who does need them?

Edited August 2 by jakee

[riggerrob 624]

1 minute ago, jakee said:

Ah, now we're getting somewhere - so there's nothing about wokeness itself that you think is remotely Marxist, you're just worried about destabilisation being a Marxist ploy?

Well ok then: First, WW1 wasn't started by Marxists. Second, German society was pretty well destabilised too, and they didn't turn to Marxism. So why pick Marxism as the inevitable result of any destabilisation? ...

Go back and read about the Weimar Republic and how chaotic German politics were during the 1920s and 1930s. They had armed gangs of communist ex-soldiers trading bullets with fascist gangs of ex-soldiers on the streets of major cities in Germany.

Adolf Hitler took advantage of this chaotic situation to seized control of the German Workers' Party and he transformed it into the hard-right, Nazi Party. Hitler promised his followers the world, but 12 years later left them a smoldering rubble.

By the same token, I fear both the hard-right and the hard-left. I fear the "woke" crowd as much as I fear MAGA.

I fear Hamas as much as I fear ultra-Orthodox Jews.

[base698 13]

On 8/1/2024 at 12:35 PM, billvon said:

Woke ideology is the attempt to understand the injustices in society against minorities and marginalized groups - and address them.  Simple

> MLK states, "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character." 

 

One of the departures from this lovely quote, which explains wokeness post 2018 is that you can't judge by the content of character anymore.  If someone is shitting in the street or using heroin in a kids playground, then you just don't know their trauma.  Have some empathy!  If stores are getting looted, you just don't know what adversity minority communities have faced.

If naked men are blowing each other at Folsom Street parade or SF pride, that's just their culture.  Stop being a bigot.  Cultural standards need not apply equally.  

In addition, intersectionality which you kind of touched on above.  It's not enough to be an ally of African Americans or gays.  Now you need to consider the situation of trans Puerto Ricans raised by foster parents.  Thousands of classes of things to worry about.  Opportunity cost is real.  If you have $100,000 to spend on racial justice, now you have to distribute it to every class.  Each one gets $1 instead of one or two issues getting significant funding and attention. Sure be nice to the trans skydiver and understand them, but there is a practical matter when you start to apply policy at a global level to make sure all groups have equal representation.

Another hallmark of woke is the focus on things like women's representation in video games.  Instead of funding more women in science they concern themselves with how a video game character is clothed.  

 

https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/looting-chicago-after-george-floyd-s-death-ruined-our-store-ncna1231806

 

[JoeWeber 2,678]

8 hours ago, riggerrob said:

Joe ...

Perhaps I adopted "when in doubt, be polite" so many decades ago that it is my standard practice and I just do not understand why anyone would waster time chewing out others for .........

For a few years I relished the thought of chewing out lawyers, but now understand that lawyers are beyond hope ... er ... lawyers are too narrow-minded to understand the bigger picture. Lawyers are not bright enough to learn from experience. Lawyers are far too self-centered to care whether the wounded live or die. Me chewing out a lawyer would no change their world-view .... BUT ... it might cause me to "stroke out."

Lawyers are trained to do research until they are partners and then they direct new lawyers to do research, that’s the model in any multiple lawyer shop. Eventually they become subject matter experts but not many, in my experience, have been thinkers or risk takers. That’s tv stuff. When you hire one think of them as understudies for the research you’ve already done and the bill will be less and so will your disappointment.

[jakee 1,429]

8 hours ago, riggerrob said:

By the same token, I fear both the hard-right and the hard-left. I fear the "woke" crowd as much as I fear MAGA.

Why do you think wokeness is hard left? As said, MAGA is a populist movement that is quite happy to push Marxist economic policies that it thinks will play well with the crowd.

Why have you specifically homed in on woke as being Marxist? What have they actually said or done that would qualify?

Quote

They had armed gangs of communist ex-soldiers trading bullets with fascist gangs of ex-soldiers on the streets of major cities in Germany.

And how do you know they were communist? Was it simply because they existed in a destabilised society? Or was it because they said and did communist things?

Edited August 3 by jakee

[billvon 2,885]

8 hours ago, base698 said:

One of the departures from this lovely quote, which explains wokeness post 2018 is that you can't judge by the content of character anymore.  If someone is shitting in the street or using heroin in a kids playground, then you just don't know their trauma.  Have some empathy!

Indeed.  If that guy shitting in the street was just shot in the stomach, then knowing that might change how you perceive him.  Heck, even you might have some empathy in that case - even if understanding his trauma might make you woke.

Quote

In addition, intersectionality which you kind of touched on above.  It's not enough to be an ally of African Americans or gays.  Now you need to consider the situation of trans Puerto Ricans raised by foster parents.  Thousands of classes of things to worry about.

You don't need to consider anything you don't want to.  If genders confuse you, for example, just use the bathroom you are comfortable with.  But if genders confuse you and you start lecturing other people on what their genders SHOULD be, then you might get some pushback.

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Sure be nice to the trans skydiver and understand them

Even if it makes you woke?  Good for you!

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f you have $100,000 to spend on racial justice, now you have to distribute it to every class.  Each one gets $1 instead of one or two issues getting significant funding and attention.

It ALWAYS gets distributed.  ALWAYS.  If you spend $100,000 on 100,000 black people, or $1 on every single one of those black people because they are all different, the result is . . .  exactly the same.

Quote

Instead of funding more women in science they concern themselves with how a video game character is clothed.  

Funding more women in science is something to do with your money.  Complaining about how a video game character is clothed is something you do online that costs nothing.  So you can do both with no conflict!  Cool eh?

[billvon 2,885]

9 hours ago, riggerrob said:

My question is: if Marxism and Maoism have both failed, why do we need them in Western society?

We don't.  But as you admit above, Marxism has nothing to do with being woke.

[tkhayes 327]

On 8/1/2024 at 2:08 PM, ryoder said:

Try Merriam-Webster:

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/woke

[s] but but but the dictionary doesn't fit what I want to BELIEVE the words mean.... so I just decided to make up my own definitions based upon my personal biases. [/s]

Edited August 3 by tkhayes
added tags

[kallend 1,934]

2 hours ago, tkhayes said:

[s] but but but the dictionary doesn't fit what I want to BELIEVE the words mean.... so I just decided to make up my own definitions based upon my personal biases. [/s]

Why stop there?  Make up your own words too, like 'cofvefe'.

[ryoder 1,590]

12 minutes ago, kallend said:

Why stop there?  Make up your own words too, like 'cofvefe'.

But it is even funnier when he redefines existing words: