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winsor

Woke is a Joke

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I don't really understand what it's like to be a minority...

I do; as a caucasian in post-apartheid sub-Saharan Africa for 20 years. If one doesn't like the perceived systemic slights against oneself in one's country of residence, and if there is no realistic prospect to change that, then one may work hard to go someplace else. I did, by emigrating. It's not an entirely invalid argument.

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"The meltdown in South Africa isn’t a natural disaster or a random fluke. It’s a choice. South Africa was the first modern nation to be refounded on the anti-white principles of critical race theory, and now it is reaping the whirlwind of that choice. 

South Africa did everything that is being done in America right now."

As an ex-South African even I would say that article is stretching. The riots were a blend of ethnic-specific protest (Zuma is Zulu - most riots were in KZN area) , increased economic stresses of Covid lockdowns and standard criminal elements under a guise of political protest. Not much that can be attributed to CRT on this one.

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8 hours ago, metalslug said:

 

I do; as a caucasian in post-apartheid sub-Saharan Africa for 20 years. If one doesn't like the perceived systemic slights against oneself in one's country of residence, and if there is no realistic prospect to change that, then one may work hard to go someplace else. I did, by emigrating. It's not an entirely invalid argument.

As an ex-South African even I would say that article is stretching. The riots were a blend of ethnic-specific protest (Zuma is Zulu - most riots were in KZN area) , increased economic stresses of Covid lockdowns and standard criminal elements under a guise of political protest. Not much that can be attributed to CRT on this one.

I agree that the article pushes it when calling the policies in South Africa 'CRT.'

One can make a solid case that systemic racism of any stripe is evil using Rhodesia -> Zimbabwe as an example, but saying that this was due to CRT is demonstrably false.

Given the results in those two countries, CRT seems to do the same things while expecting different results.

 

BSBD,

Winsor

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There might be a difference between being a dominant minority, whether it’s financial, military, or even social (e.g. white people who owned a plantation), that have the backing of force behind them, and being a minority without any of those privileges. Or even a numeric majority, but lacking in power in the system. 
If you accept that people are, as a genetic group, generally equal in capability (yes, I understand redheads burn more easily than I do), then systemic lack of achievement probably has social, and not innately physical, components. 
I was a “minority” in Brazil; however it would be ludicrous to say I suffered a lot of repression from it. Maybe if I had been bullied, but that’s fairly far down the systemic ladder of discrimination. Kids who went to schools with strong hazing traditions may differ on the impact of bullying, and they’d be right. For their experience. 

Wendy P.  

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10 hours ago, metalslug said:

 

I do; as a caucasian in post-apartheid sub-Saharan Africa for 20 years. If one doesn't like the perceived systemic slights against oneself in one's country of residence, and if there is no realistic prospect to change that, then one may work hard to go someplace else.

While I agree, the conclusion "so blacks have to leave if they want to see equal rights" speaks more to failures of a society than anything else.

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2 hours ago, sfzombie13 said:

"As an ex-South African..."

that explains it. 

Have an broad-brush opinion about South Africans, do you ? ...or ex-SA's ?  I'm sure the founder and administrator of this site and forum would be thrilled to hear it.

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Look, the bottom line is everyone can do a better job of respecting all races, creeds, colors, differences - period. Wanna learn how to do that - go to another country where your race, creed or color puts you in the minority.  It's all about respect. 

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1 hour ago, BIGUN said:

Look, the bottom line is everyone can do a better job of respecting all races, creeds, colors, differences - period. Wanna learn how to do that - go to another country where your race, creed or color puts you in the minority.  It's all about respect. 

Agreed.  The month I spent in Niger was very eye opening.  (Although at the end I could leave - so it wasn't exactly the same.  But still educational.)

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10 hours ago, metalslug said:

Have an broad-brush opinion about South Africans, do you ? ...or ex-SA's ?  I'm sure the founder and administrator of this site and forum would be thrilled to hear it.

i don't hold anything against anyone as a group.  for this one that is the last piece of the puzzle i assembled in my head to explain the racist bullshit i heard in the comments.  maybe it was there, maybe not.  maybe he is a racist bastard, maybe not.  i don't much care about either.  i'm sure the founder and admin is a nice guy, at least nice enough to have a website like this.  if not, oh well, not my problem.  i also don't recall seeing any posts of his spouting racist bullshit.

Edited by sfzombie13
tired of getting banned

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The article on "The Hedgehogs of Critical Race Theory" nails it rather succinctly:

 https://johnnotesandessays.blogspot.com/2021/07/the-hedgehogs-of-critical-race-theory.html

This concept applies equally to any popular notion of "Justice" as well.  For example, our 'System of Justice' is actually a 'Legal System;' as J. Edgar Hoover noted "Justice is incidental to Law and Order."

Having seen the results of all too many utopian 'theories' when put into practice, I tend to view them as I do 'Perpetual Motion' - if one claims to violate the Clausius Inequality, their work can be dismissed out of hand.

I again cite one of my favorite cynics, Henry L. Mencken (the Bard of Baltimore): "For every complex problem there exists a solution that is simple, elegant - and wrong."

While I agree that many of the issues raised by the Woke are indeed significant, the 'solutions' they propose are anything but.

 

BSBD,

Winsor

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3 hours ago, winsor said:

The article on "The Hedgehogs of Critical Race Theory" nails it rather succinctly:

 https://johnnotesandessays.blogspot.com/2021/07/the-hedgehogs-of-critical-race-theory.html

This concept applies equally to any popular notion of "Justice" as well.  For example, our 'System of Justice' is actually a 'Legal System;' as J. Edgar Hoover noted "Justice is incidental to Law and Order."

Having seen the results of all too many utopian 'theories' when put into practice, I tend to view them as I do 'Perpetual Motion' - if one claims to violate the Clausius Inequality, their work can be dismissed out of hand.

I again cite one of my favorite cynics, Henry L. Mencken (the Bard of Baltimore): "For every complex problem there exists a solution that is simple, elegant - and wrong."

While I agree that many of the issues raised by the Woke are indeed significant, the 'solutions' they propose are anything but.

 

BSBD,

Winsor

yet i still have not read anything you have written on the subject which signifies that you have any idea what is contained inside crt other than things others have written, aka second hand information.  you can present all the summaries others have written that you like, that does not change that fact.  so until you have actually done your research, you have no idea what you are talking about, regardless of who or what you cite.  when you realize that crt boils down to just not hiding the bad parts of history as has been done for centuries, then you will realize how wrong you and everyone else is about crt.  all it is is the truth about how we have treated minorities.

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3 hours ago, winsor said:

The article on "The Hedgehogs of Critical Race Theory" nails it rather succinctly:

 https://johnnotesandessays.blogspot.com/2021/07/the-hedgehogs-of-critical-race-theory.html

Do you honestly not understand that you are the hedgehog being talked about? You refuse to see any of these issues in anything but one big absolutist way.

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On 7/23/2021 at 4:41 AM, winsor said:

The article on "The Hedgehogs of Critical Race Theory" nails it rather succinctly:

 https://johnnotesandessays.blogspot.com/2021/07/the-hedgehogs-of-critical-race-theory.html

 

The only thing that article 'nails' is all the lies that the Alt-Right are using to try to suppress CRT.

You know, censor it.

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23 minutes ago, wolfriverjoe said:

The only thing that article 'nails' is all the lies that the Alt-Right are using to try to suppress CRT.

You know, censor it.

Please point to the section of the article that recommends anything like censorship.  I've gone through it a few times and can't quite spot the recommendation you reference.

What 'lies' are these?  Calling something a lie does not make it untrue.  

Who in particular is the Alt-Right?  Anyone who calls bullshit on notions the Left calls dear?

If you have a coherent stance, by all means submit it.  If all you have is abuse, I suppose that will have to do in the meantime.

 

BSBD,

Winsor

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2 hours ago, winsor said:

Please point to the section of the article that recommends anything like censorship. 

It does not, nor did Joe claim it did.  What he said was it showcases "all the lies that the Alt-Right are using to try to suppress CRT."  Which it does admirably.  Some examples:

"Critical race theory has spread across the U.S. like—forgive the expression—a virus."  And what do you do to a virus?  

" . . .beholds the astounding impunity with which it may run amok in the streets and burn police cars and shopping malls . . ."  Equating CRT to rioting is like equating US independence to looting.  (After all, Boston Tea Party - need any fool say more?)

"All white people are racists. " - A favorite lie the right attributes to CRT.  After all, if you are white, they hate you!

As to the censorship itself I refer you to:

"Republicans announce federal bills to 'restrict the spread' of critical race theory"

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/nbcblk/republicans-announce-federal-bills-restrict-spread-critical-race-theory-n1267161

Please tell us all how the government outlawing a field of study is just fine, but Facebook deleting posts that violate its Terms of Service is just like the Kristallnacht.

I'm disappointed.  You once seemed like a pretty free thinker, with your own opinions and viewpoints.  It was interesting to hear what you had to say.  It's sad to see you sucked into the partisan void of the dittoheads and right wing parrots; what comes out of your mouth these days has been predigested and fed to you by the right wing, and you present it without any additional critical thought.

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Just another reminder that the outrage about CRT is completely manufactured by right-wing thinktanks, who actively set out to manipulate public perception around it and have no problems admitting that they did it:

The tell is mostly that CRT has been an academic topic for *decades* but no one outside those spaces had even heard of it until conservative media *just this year* started losing their fucking minds about it....

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7 hours ago, mistercwood said:

Just another reminder that the outrage about CRT is completely manufactured by right-wing thinktanks, who actively set out to manipulate public perception around it and have no problems admitting that they did it:

The tell is mostly that CRT has been an academic topic for *decades* but no one outside those spaces had even heard of it until conservative media *just this year* started losing their fucking minds about it....

I look at sources such as:

https://criticalrace.org/what-is-critical-race-theory/

and am simply appalled.

CRT is 100% racist. Period.  I doubt if the KKK is as blatant about their stance that it is ALL about race.

'Equality' is a worthwhile goal but 'equity' is discrimination in practice.  Similarly 'diversity' is a racial metric, and entirely racist in practice.

When the Wall fell, East Germans concept of 'Capitalism' was what they had 'learned' from their teachers (academics?), and some of them moved West to cash in on the gold mine that was now open to them.

Having limited useful skills and a Socialist work ethic ('"we pretend to work and they pretend to pay us"), success was elusive for many.  Finding out that simply being German wasn't the key to instant wealth, and seeing that even Turks were doing better - driving new BMWs and dressing well - many called foul and formed the core of the 'skinhead' movement.

The point that largely escaped them about why (some) Turkish Gastarbeiter were successful and they were not is that the successful Turks were hard working, reliable, honest and did a great job at menial tasks the West Germans were happy to hand off.  The unsuccessful Ossies, OTOH, were unreliable drunken louts who seemed to think there was a 'trick' to success.

The idea that 'it is all about race' overlooks the influence of culture - among other things.  There has been great pushback amongst CRT adherents about including pretty much any group of Asians (Asia's a pretty big place, and all Asians are not the same as I recall) as a minority, since it blows out of the water the principle that being subject to discrimination guarantees mediocrity of outcome.  Harvard has been taken to task for their limit on Asian admissions.

I caught an interview with Ibram X. Kendi, and when asked to define 'racism' his response used the term 'racist' three times.  Thus, when people refer to CRT as 'academic' I am underwhelmed.  There are Professors at Big Name Institutions of my acquaintance who are not where they are because of their intellect - they can blather endlessly without a coherent thought to slow them down. 

I find racism offensive and always have.  I can see no reason why I should have any more respect for CRT than for KKK ideology; I see them as flip sides of the same coin.

My standpoint does not come from 'following' much of anyone.  I listen to as much Rush Limbaugh now as I did when he was alive (okay, so I caught maybe half an hour of his 'entertainment' over the years), and made it through only a couple of pages of some book by Ann Coulter that somebody gave me.  I needed earplugs to read her stuff, and am not sure if I agree or disagree with her since I couldn't get past her screaming on paper.

It concerns me that people are fine with CRT.  If racism is okay then it's okay, if racism is evil it's evil.  I kind of stick with the latter view.

A quick search for a definition of 'racism' yields the following:

Racism

noun

a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human racial groups determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to dominate others or that a particular racial group is inferior to the others.

Since this flies in the face of my preference for equal rights, equal responsibilities, no more, no less I am not okay with it in any guise, whether the version espoused by CRT or the KKK.

 

BSBD,

Winsor

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10 hours ago, billvon said:

 

  And what do you do to a virus?  

 

we deny it exists, then when it is impossible to do that, we cry about how we are being forced to give up our freedom when all we are asked to do is protect one another. 

1 hour ago, winsor said:

Having limited useful skills and a Socialist work ethic ('"we pretend to work and they pretend to pay us"), success was elusive for many.  Finding out that simply being German wasn't the key to instant wealth, and seeing that even Turks were doing better - driving new BMWs and dressing well - many called foul and formed the core of the 'skinhead' movement.

 

 

you may want to know that skinheads were around long before the wall fell.  but you know better than me of course.  i was just there when the wall came down.  fun times.  and there were skinheads in the us years before that, and i assume they were in germany long before also, as i know a few of them who had been well organized by the time i got there, again, before the wall came down.  like most of the other bullshit you are trying to spread, simply not true.

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1 hour ago, winsor said:

I look at sources such as:

https://criticalrace.org/what-is-critical-race-theory/

and am simply appalled.

Well of course you are. It's another conservative/libertarian group telling you what it is and painting it in the worst possible light, as opposed to any actual teaching that's currently going on. It took a few seconds of skimming the page to pick up on the language chosen and then another couple of minutes checking the parent site and the other externally linked references to confirm this was the furthest thing from an objective observer.

If CRT actually was what that website says it is, everyone here would be in agreement with you. But also if you spent half as much time writing your lengthy diatribes and put the balance into actually *researching* the topics you've chosen, you might have already seen that you are being led by the nose. 

In fairness though, I do genuinely appreciate that you finally provided some sources for examination.

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2 hours ago, winsor said:

I look at sources such as:

https://criticalrace.org/what-is-critical-race-theory/

and am simply appalled.

So you look at a radical right wing source and you find out that what they have to say about CRT makes it sound bad? So fucking what? Is that supposed to be new information to anyone?

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CRT is 100% racist. Period.  I doubt if the KKK is as blatant about their stance that it is ALL about race.

So again, why should anyone listen to you when you're just another critical race hedgehog?

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1 hour ago, mistercwood said:

Well of course you are. It's another conservative/libertarian group telling you what it is and painting it in the worst possible light, as opposed to any actual teaching that's currently going on. It took a few seconds of skimming the page to pick up on the language chosen and then another couple of minutes checking the parent site and the other externally linked references to confirm this was the furthest thing from an objective observer.

If CRT actually was what that website says it is, everyone here would be in agreement with you. But also if you spent half as much time writing your lengthy diatribes and put the balance into actually *researching* the topics you've chosen, you might have already seen that you are being led by the nose. 

In fairness though, I do genuinely appreciate that you finally provided some sources for examination.

Your turn.

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8 hours ago, winsor said:

I look at sources such as:

https://criticalrace.org/what-is-critical-race-theory/

and am simply appalled.

CRT is 100% racist. Period.  I doubt if the KKK is as blatant about their stance that it is ALL about race.

'Equality' is a worthwhile goal but 'equity' is discrimination in practice.  Similarly 'diversity' is a racial metric, and entirely racist in practice.

When the Wall fell, East Germans concept of 'Capitalism' was what they had 'learned' from their teachers (academics?), and some of them moved West to cash in on the gold mine that was now open to them.

Having limited useful skills and a Socialist work ethic ('"we pretend to work and they pretend to pay us"), success was elusive for many.  Finding out that simply being German wasn't the key to instant wealth, and seeing that even Turks were doing better - driving new BMWs and dressing well - many called foul and formed the core of the 'skinhead' movement.

The point that largely escaped them about why (some) Turkish Gastarbeiter were successful and they were not is that the successful Turks were hard working, reliable, honest and did a great job at menial tasks the West Germans were happy to hand off.  The unsuccessful Ossies, OTOH, were unreliable drunken louts who seemed to think there was a 'trick' to success.

The idea that 'it is all about race' overlooks the influence of culture - among other things.  There has been great pushback amongst CRT adherents about including pretty much any group of Asians (Asia's a pretty big place, and all Asians are not the same as I recall) as a minority, since it blows out of the water the principle that being subject to discrimination guarantees mediocrity of outcome.  Harvard has been taken to task for their limit on Asian admissions.

I caught an interview with Ibram X. Kendi, and when asked to define 'racism' his response used the term 'racist' three times.  Thus, when people refer to CRT as 'academic' I am underwhelmed.  There are Professors at Big Name Institutions of my acquaintance who are not where they are because of their intellect - they can blather endlessly without a coherent thought to slow them down. 

I find racism offensive and always have.  I can see no reason why I should have any more respect for CRT than for KKK ideology; I see them as flip sides of the same coin.

My standpoint does not come from 'following' much of anyone.  I listen to as much Rush Limbaugh now as I did when he was alive (okay, so I caught maybe half an hour of his 'entertainment' over the years), and made it through only a couple of pages of some book by Ann Coulter that somebody gave me.  I needed earplugs to read her stuff, and am not sure if I agree or disagree with her since I couldn't get past her screaming on paper.

It concerns me that people are fine with CRT.  If racism is okay then it's okay, if racism is evil it's evil.  I kind of stick with the latter view.

A quick search for a definition of 'racism' yields the following:

Racism

noun

a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human racial groups determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to dominate others or that a particular racial group is inferior to the others.

Since this flies in the face of my preference for equal rights, equal responsibilities, no more, no less I am not okay with it in any guise, whether the version espoused by CRT or the KKK.

 

BSBD,

Winsor

Hi Winsor,

Re:  When the Wall fell, East Germans concept of 'Capitalism' was what they had 'learned' from their teachers (academics?)

I disagree.  Even during the period of the Third Reich, Germany was a well educated country.  They knew what capitalism is/was.

It would seem that you think that the world consists of people 40 & under.

Jerry Baumchen

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9 hours ago, winsor said:

When the Wall fell, East Germans concept of 'Capitalism' was what they had 'learned' from their teachers (academics?), and some of them moved West to cash in on the gold mine that was now open to them.

 

And today conservatives learn about CRT from FOX News; a very similar situation.

Quote

The idea that 'it is all about race' overlooks the influence of culture - among other things.

I agree!  Too bad there isn't a way of critically studying the influence of race (and culture, and socioecononics, and inherited legal formalisms) on how society has evolved, eh?

Quote

I find racism offensive and always have.  I can see no reason why I should have any more respect for CRT than for KKK ideology; I see them as flip sides of the same coin.

Perhaps because one is a study of the underpinnings of society and how it relates to race, and the other are a bunch of white supremacists who kill black people?  If that's same-same to you - some of your posts here make a little more sense.

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Critical race theory is a way of looking at history. Because history has many points of view; not only that of the “victor.”  It applies a lens of disparate treatment based on race to social and governmental structures, to see if it’s valid or made a difference. 
Like any cool new hammer, some people see it as the lens, rather than one of many. Using a hammer to remove a window is generally less than optimal, but that doesn’t make the hammer useless. 

 We’re used to the lens of US history and civics as interpreted and written by (generally) white and (generally) male authorities, because that human description was synonymous with professional and scholarly authority; certainly in the US, and very possibly throughout the western world. Why not try different lenses?

Ever wonder how history (you know, the one and only history) is taught in other countries? Maybe they don’t all have exactly the same viewpoint. 
Wendy P. 

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19 minutes ago, wmw999 said:

Ever wonder how history (you know, the one and only history) is taught in other countries? Maybe they don’t all have exactly the same viewpoint. 

And it might even be that learning about those different viewpoints gives you a wider understanding of both America and the world around it.

Any time someone says "the study of XXX must be banned!" my first thought is to wonder why they are so afraid of it.

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