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winsor

Woke is a Joke

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6 hours ago, BIGUN said:

Now, you're getting into the depth of CRT. Everything before was race relations. We're not talking about race as socially constructed groups in CRT. We're talking about one group of people only giving another group of people those opportunities and freedoms when it is in their own interests and they have the legal means to enforce those interests. 

Agreed.  And again, it's all race relations.  CRT is the study of the structural underpinnings of that.

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And, let's not delude ourselves into thinking this is a black and white issue. It's about power over others that one group of people . .

Also agreed; that's CLS.  CRT is a subset of CLS, and deals specifically with race.  (Which, in the US, is about blacks about 80% of the time.)

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13 hours ago, billvon said:

 

Now you are conflating BLM and CRT?   Because they both . . . have something to do with black people?   Are you going to conflate aircraft and sewers next, because they both deal with fluid dynamics, sort of?  (And some aircraft HAVE a sewer!  Sort of.)

A long, long time ago, a skydiving FAQ made the rounds.  It was mostly good stuff, but at the end there was a question "can skydivers breathe in freefall?" to which the author replied tongue-in-cheek "no, we absorb air through our skin."  The Usenet group rec.skydiving had some fun with that for a while, saying "yeah, and that's why our cheeks flap to absorb more air!" "That's why we can't jump through clouds, because the moisture clogs our pores" and "that's why only experts can wear full face helmets and nylon jumpsuits - they can hold their breath for a minute.  That's why they are out of breath after the dive!"

It was funny for a while then died off.

A few years later I was chief instructor at Brown and a group from a local tech company showed up because two of their group were doing tandems, and they were all there for the spectacle.  I went looking for the students themselves (something that occupied at least 25% of my time as an instructor) and overheard one of the non-skydivers talking to his friend.

"Yeah, skydivers can't breathe in freefall," he said.  "The wind is too strong.  They absorb it through their skin."

"Where did you hear that?" I asked him.

"I found it on the Internet!" he said, as if his ability to use the Internet was notable.  (At that point, it sort of was; you had to have at least a modicum of experience to get on the 'net via a dial up modem, running at the blazing speed of 9600bps.)

"That's not really true.  You can breathe, it just feels like you . . . "

"Oh yeah?  Well, do you jump through clouds?"

"We try not to, because . . ."

"Yep.  That's what the thing on the Internet said.  You can't because the moisture clogs up your skin and you suffocate."  He looked to his friends to see if they would acknowledge and compliment him "ferreting out the secret" that this lying skydiver didn't want him to find out.  They did not.

This guy knew what was up.  He had Done His Research.  He actually did more than listen to NPR; he looked up some information on the Internet (technically Usenet.) 

I took him about as seriously as I take you on this topic.

 

Again, nice try.

Commonality between CRT and BLM?  Let's see, shall we?

Seeing everything through a racist lens?  Check.

Being sacrosanct by dint of espousing 'good racism?'  Check.

Relying on 'logic' that wouldn't pass muster with Monty Python (and thus falling under the title of the thread)?  Check.

Being spawned by self-proclaimed Marxists?  Check.

I could go on, but you get the drift.

Given your credentials from a Highly Esteemed Educational Institution (vs. my never having finished High School, or obtained a B license for that matter), I would expect a more nuanced understanding of the subject.

When Michael Brown was killed, was it all about race?  I dunno, I suppose a guy of Czech extraction, built like a linebacker, who had just committed a strongarm robbery and was walking down the middle of the street, would get a pass when he physically attacked an armed cop who stopped him to discuss the issue.  Or maybe it would be ignored as 'suicide by cop' if he wound up dead for his efforts.

CRT having its roots in Academia does not make its tenets any more valid.  A casual perusal of history will demonstrate a real dog's breakfast of nonsensical 'theories' that have been in and out of favor over the years.  A professor whose specialty is CRT is about as impressive as one whose dissertation was on Theoretical Phrenology.

As far as suffocation by blocking the pores of the skin, may I point out that murder by coating all of the skin with an impermeable material has been described in the literature by a source educated at Eton, Sandhurst and the Universities of Munich and Geneva no less (Goldfinger - LTCDR Ian Fleming).  That pretty much settles that.

I get the impression that you got at least the undergrad exposure to Probability and Statistics/Stochastic Processes, but I have been surprised by the extent to which you do not apply these fundamentals to issues you appear to hold dear (I suppose you could be playing Devil's Advocate just for amusement, which would be a relief).

Penn and Teller did a great job of demonstrating how the pet 'theories' of Woke ideology tend to get things pretty much backward; since they tend to be funny as hell, that supports the basis of this thread.

Anyone that supports 'Diversity, Equity and Inclusion' (tm) with a straight face may be dismissed as a humorless twit.

 

BSBD,

Winsor

 

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19 minutes ago, jakee said:

I don't know where you got the idea that it's an ideology.

you're feeding the troll again.  of course this one has no idea what crt is, that is more than obvious from the beginning, but more so after the last comment.  go on, ask him what crt is and see what he says.  the fact he groups it together with blm is telling, and as much as i hate to call folks racist, this one sure is acting a lot like it.  hard to tell them from the trolls though, what's your thought on it?  of course, i already spelled it out in one of my comments, so he has the chance to actually get it right, but he won't.  trolls don't act like that and racists can't admit the truth about it. 

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2 minutes ago, sfzombie13 said:

go on, ask him what crt is and see what he says. 

An eloquent but meaningless digression about land negotiations between the government of Panama and its native tribes in 1972, would be my guess.

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3 hours ago, winsor said:

When Michael Brown was killed, was it all about race?  I dunno, I suppose a guy of Czech extraction, built like a linebacker, who had just committed a strongarm robbery and was walking down the middle of the street, would get a pass when he physically attacked an armed cop who stopped him to discuss the issue.  Or maybe it would be ignored as 'suicide by cop' if he wound up dead for his efforts.

 

 

The actual killing was found to be justified (correctly, IMO).

However, the fact that his body lay in the street for over 6 hours, in St Louis, in August was one issue.

The fact that the cops lied repeatedly about the circumstances of the incident was another (remember the X-ray pic of the broken eye socket?).

The fact that the deeper investigation prompted by the shooting revealed blatant and overt racism by the white cops against the predominantly black population was the biggest.

BLM grew out of the revelations that, to the cops in Ferguson, black lives DIDN'T matter.

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12 minutes ago, wolfriverjoe said:

The actual killing was found to be justified (correctly, IMO).

However, the fact that his body lay in the street for over 6 hours, in St Louis, in August was one issue.

The fact that the cops lied repeatedly about the circumstances of the incident was another (remember the X-ray pic of the broken eye socket?).

The fact that the deeper investigation prompted by the shooting revealed blatant and overt racism by the white cops against the predominantly black population was the biggest.

BLM grew out of the revelations that, to the cops in Ferguson, black lives DIDN'T matter.

The fact that the cops behaved in an unprofessional manner is unacceptable.  I've been in many places where there was every bit as much of an us/them divide between the cops and the locals that had nothing to do with race.

Making it all about race is racist, and BLM is 100% racist.

If you're okay with that, fine.  I'm not.

 

BSBD,

Winsor

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7 hours ago, winsor said:

Again, nice try.

Commonality between CRT and BLM?  Let's see, shall we?

Seeing everything through a racist lens?  Check.

Being sacrosanct by dint of espousing 'good racism?'  Check.

Relying on 'logic' that wouldn't pass muster with Monty Python (and thus falling under the title of the thread)?  Check.

Being spawned by self-proclaimed Marxists?  Check.

I could go on, but you get the drift.

I do indeed.  Your sources for what CRT is are about as authoritative as that whuffo's ideas of what skydiving was from years gone by.

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Penn and Teller

Yep.  No wonder you believe the right wing strawman version of what CRT is.  I am only surprised you did not include George Carlin, Andrew Dice Clay and Bobcat GoldThwait as sources for your understanding.

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When Michael Brown was killed, was it all about race?  

Nope.  But race played a role.  Attempts to understand what role it played are worthwhile, and are not Monty Python-esque, or Marxist, or racist.

Quote

Anyone that supports 'Diversity, Equity and Inclusion' (tm) with a straight face may be dismissed as a humorless twit.

I do indeed support it, and I am just fine with you thinking I am a humorless twit.  Due to my work in it, I have realized a few things.

I used to think I understood transgender people.  Then one of the women who works for me came out to me as trans.  She did this because of my support for DEI, and it was a good thing - I could be a better manager if I understood her perspective a bit better.  From her I learned that I was not "woke."  I did not understand what trans people go through, nor do I understand now, since I am a straight cis guy.  But at least I understand the issue a little better now.

I used to think that rape was a rare crime, and that it was something that happened when women got careless.  Then an old friend told me about her rape.  It shook me a bit.  When I talked to another friend about it, she told me about HER rape.  Now half the women I have talked to have their own stories about it - including women who are tough as nails, and are about as far from a careless pushover as you can get.

I used to think that blacks (and other minorities) had had it bad centuries ago, but nowadays all those laws had been changed, so now it was 100% up to them.  Then in high school I got to know the Indian kid next to me in band.  He was one of four non-Christians allowed entry.  I also got to know one of the four black kids in the school, and we're still friends on Facebook.  I did a little digging, and found out that if my high school admitted a certain percentage of non-Christian and non-white students, they qualified for a federal financial assistance program.  (One of those 'structural' things that you think is a joke.)  I don't really understand what it's like to be a minority, but after talking to them I at least understand it a little bit more.

From your posts it sounds like you believe you know it all, and are smugly confident that you have nothing left to learn on the topic.  Black scholars who research the structural basis of racism are Marxists, and their work is comedy.  Trans people are mentally ill.  Muslims are violent, insane criminals.  Black people who talk about racism are the real racists.  If that lets you sleep better at night, then I guess that . . . works for you.

Rest assured that I do not have the vast, superior and unquestionable understanding that you do.  The more work I do on understanding the issues under DEI (and for me it does take work) the more I understand how much I have to learn.  If that means I am a humorless twit in your eyes, so be it.  Feel free to, in the future, disregard my posts, and converse only with people at your (much higher) level.

 

 

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I know such authorities as Kimberle Crenshaw, Kendall Thomas and Patricia Williams dispute my observations, claiming what I have witnessed is all a big misunderstanding.  I have heard their 'logic,' and find it terminally flawed.

I have endured all too many hours of 'training' regarding 'diversity,' equity' and 'inclusion,' and I'm sick to death of it.  Like any religious instruction, its accuracy is largely an abstraction.  Treating differing opinions as heresy is an approach I do not condone.

I am fine with the realities of these principles in a sense, but I recoil against it forced down my throat as dogma.

The road to hell being paved with good intentions, Social Justice Warriors blithely espouse all too much of what led to the worst form of totalitarianism.

I don't give a rat's ass whether someone is straight or gay, male, female or unsure, or quite where their forebears were from.  It's none of my business, and it is not my job to care about it one way or another.

The very people who feel that it is okay to offend me are the ones who insist that I avoid offending them.  Gee, I guess that's fair.

It is the Woke crowd that is most insistent that everyone adhere to their idea of what is or is not acceptable, and I find that repellent.

Where I differ from the Woke ideologies is that I can like someone and note that they are wrong, or despise  someone even if they say something accurate. 

The Woke would take anything said by Trump, for example, and dispute it simply because he said it.  I agree that he is and always was a scumbag, and still can't stand the sound of his voice, but if he said something accurate (usually phrased in a manner that an 8th grader should find embarrassing), I had to note the he screwed up and got it right.

CRT is like Climate Change, where there is ONE factor of consideration when all is said and done.  If someone claims a SISO solution to a system analysis, there is an overwhelming likelihood that it is terminally flawed.

Thus, while I am strongly in favor of equal rights ad equal responsibilities for all, I have yet to any indication that the Woke are anything but humorless assholes.  The more exceptions to that observation there might be, the better I like it.

 

BSBD,

Winsor

 

 

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8 minutes ago, winsor said:

Where I differ from the Woke ideologies is that I can like someone and note that they are wrong, or despise  someone even if they say something accurate. 

The Woke would take anything said by Trump, for example, and dispute it simply because he said it. 

Just one more massive (and irrelevant) broad brush stereotype from the guy who can't possibly be a racist because he treats everyone as individuals.

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3 minutes ago, winsor said:

Having watched the 'progress' in sub-Saharan Africa since the '60s, this:

https://www.revolver.news/2021/07/south-africa-riots-looting-critical-race-theory/

is anything but surprising.

I wish it had sorted itself out differently.

 

BSBD,

Winsor

 

 

"The meltdown in South Africa isn’t a natural disaster or a random fluke. It’s a choice. South Africa was the first modern nation to be refounded on the anti-white principles of critical race theory, and now it is reaping the whirlwind of that choice. 

South Africa did everything that is being done in America right now."

 

Yeah.......ok.

 

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11 hours ago, jakee said:

I don't know where you got the idea that it's an ideology.

Originally, from the guy at the centre of this piece: How a Conservative Activist Invented the Conflict Over Critical Race Theory | The New Yorker

Dude decides the old buzzwords of Political Correctness, and Woke, weren't doing enough, then finds Critical Race Theory and figures he's hit the jackpot.

Goes on Tucker, gets the traction he wanted with people at all levels of power who won't look into what it actually is, and huzzah, here we are! We got Winsor saying that the person who coined the term itself doesn't know what it's about, but he's got it all figured out.

There's more laws against CRT than there are institutions teaching it. That's all that really needs to be known about the threat vs the outrage.

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(edited)
8 minutes ago, mistercwood said:

We got Winsor saying that the person who coined the term itself doesn't know what it's about, but he's got it all figured out.

Winsor capitalizes the words "social justice warrior". He is all about nursing his grudges and is a total believer in spreading the right wing outrage machine feelings that consume his thoughts. Buzzword Lovers Matter.

Edited by gowlerk

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6 hours ago, winsor said:

I have yet to any indication that the Woke are anything but humorless assholes.

Crack some jokes then, so far you've just been raging incoherently.

In terms of the funniest person here you're probably dead last.

25 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

He is all about nursing his grudges and is a total believer in spreading the right wing outrage machine feelings that consume his thoughts.

Winsor reminds me of Markharju. Remember how angry he was?

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1 hour ago, gowlerk said:

Winsor capitalizes the words "social justice warrior". He is all about nursing his grudges and is a total believer in spreading the right wing outrage machine feelings that consume his thoughts. Buzzword Lovers Matter.

Very cool.  These are things I didn't know - tell me more!

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11 hours ago, winsor said:

I don't give a rat's ass whether someone is straight or gay, male, female or unsure, or quite where their forebears were from.  It's none of my business, and it is not my job to care about it one way or another.

Cool!  Have you gotten over your "Muslims are violent extremists" and "transgender people are mentally ill" issues?  If so, congratulations; you are indeed getting a bit more woke.

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5 hours ago, billvon said:

Cool!  Have you gotten over your "Muslims are violent extremists" and "transgender people are mentally ill" issues?  If so, congratulations; you are indeed getting a bit more woke.

You should be more careful with your use of quotes.  Unless, of course, your purpose is obfuscation.

Humans are, on an evolutionary basis, subject to embracing concepts that are entirely and completely false.  This vulnerability is exploited by various ideologies and can be beneficial, depending on where you stand on the whole good/bad thing.

Most people who adopt a particular ideology either don't read the source material or cherry pick what they do read.  The Hebrew Scriptures mandate all sorts of wonderful things like slavery and genocide, but 'Good Christians' will go through extraordinary contortions to explain away the parts of the 'Holy Bible' that are truly awful.

Muslims similarly will claim their ideology is a 'Religion of Peace,' but the founder was a violent, psychotic pervert as a matter of record.  In modern Islam homosexuality is haram and punishable by death, but sex with a male Kaffir is halal.  Putting a daughter to death for being raped is accepted without batting an eye in large parts of the Islamic world, and Sharia overall is equally well adjusted.

Being a violent extremist is mandated by the fundamentals of Islam, and much of the Islamic world accepts as 'holy' the teachings that result in violent extremism.  What am I missing?

There are people I like a lot who are blind or paraplegic.  Am I okay with being blinded or crippled?  No, these conditions are not what one might choose.

Quite what is going on with people who conclude they are a different sex is not something that fascinates me, but I can't escape the notion that there is something severely amiss with them.  I have known enough people with alternative sexuality that I am as likely to like or dislike an individual no more or less than if they were breeders.  I have always considered Priests and Nuns to be sexually dysfunctional, but there are some of them with whom I get along fine.

Perversion is defined as something that you won't do, and I am largely indifferent so long as you keep kids out of the mix.  When you have people who advocate initiating sex changes for people who are less than 18, that's where I draw the line.

Since 'Woke' mandates 'Equity' rather than 'Equality,' that leaves me out.

Don't hold your breath waiting for me to be cool with Islam or National Socialism, or to view 'Gender Dysphoria' as well adjusted.

 

BSBD,

Winsor

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1 hour ago, winsor said:

What am I missing?

The bit where you dress the question in any meaningful way.

1 hour ago, winsor said:

There are people I like a lot who are blind or paraplegic.  Am I okay with being blinded or crippled?  No, these conditions are not what one might choose.

Pretty sure no one here said you needed to become a Muslim either, so it’s another one of those ‘the fuck are you talking about?’ moments that are becoming so common.

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