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winsor

Woke is a Joke

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21 hours ago, SkyDekker said:

That wasn't what I was discussing. It was presented as being child abuse.

Right, and as I said earlier, people here tend to get a bit hyperbolic, usually in an attempt to bring attention to the more negative aspects of a particular practice that may be getting lost in all the hype.

 

21 hours ago, SkyDekker said:

I reacted to that since Winsor belongs to a tribe that forces actual child abuse as part of their culture.

Ok, so you knew that he 'belongs' to a tribe.  So given that, I'm sure you also knew he was an atheist and secular (non-practicing) Jew that often refers to that tribe (practically every time he brings it up) as a severely dysfunctional family suffering from mental malware.  Probably not the best comparison to make your point. . .

Always better to just tackle it head on, rather than taking the easy way out by attacking someone's religion, or by just calling them a bigot and avoiding the issue. (i.e that's akin to saying you hate black people!)

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16 hours ago, billvon said:
23 hours ago, Coreece said:

Ok, so as a matter of public opinion, what does that have to do with discussing why transitioning your child may not be in their best interest?

It may be; it may not be.  That decision ultimately lies with the child and their parents.

The only one that should be making that decision is the person that's going to have to live with it for the rest of their life, when both their body and mind are mature enough to do so.

Take Chloe Cole for example.  She didn't do that to herself, her parents and the professionals they relied on did that to her.  Probably wise to just wait several more years and let the child make the decision when they're an adult and responsible for their own choices.

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49 minutes ago, Coreece said:

The only one that should be making that decision is the person that's going to have to live with it for the rest of their life, when both their body and mind are mature enough to do so.

Take Chloe Cole for example.  She didn't do that to herself, her parents and the professionals they relied on did that to her.  Probably wise to just wait several more years and let the child make the decision when they're an adult and responsible for their own choices.

Precisely my point.

Thanks.

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1 hour ago, Coreece said:

The only one that should be making that decision is the person that's going to have to live with it for the rest of their life, when both their body and mind are mature enough to do so.

Take Chloe Cole for example.  She didn't do that to herself, her parents and the professionals they relied on did that to her.  Probably wise to just wait several more years and let the child make the decision when they're an adult and responsible for their own choices.

I agree. Until a person is of the legal age of majority, and is thus personally responsible for any permanent, medically induced changes to their body no such changes should be legally allowed. 

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(edited)
3 hours ago, Coreece said:

Always better to just tackle it head on, rather than taking the easy way out by attacking someone's religion, 

Again, when did you get so Woke?

 

Winsor himself would be aghast that you are trying to cancel people for criticising any religion.

Edited by jakee

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4 hours ago, Coreece said:

The only one that should be making that decision is the person that's going to have to live with it for the rest of their life, when both their body and mind are mature enough to do so.

Take Chloe Cole for example.  She didn't do that to herself, her parents and the professionals they relied on did that to her.  Probably wise to just wait several more years and let the child make the decision when they're an adult and responsible for their own choices.

How many children should commit suicide or spend miserable teenaged years before making up for Chloe Cole? How about minors getting nose jobs — is that off the table? Braces?

Parents make decisions for their minor children. We hope most of them are right, but they aren’t always. Where does the state draw the line?

Wendy P. 

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43 minutes ago, wmw999 said:

How many children should commit suicide or spend miserable teenaged years before making up for Chloe Cole? How about minors getting nose jobs — is that off the table? Braces?

Parents make decisions for their minor children. We hope most of them are right, but they aren’t always. Where does the state draw the line?

Wendy P. 

Where? At the age of majority. Until we have a vastly better understanding, the type that is a close cousin of certainty, better to err on the side of caution. Of course a law might be passed allowing kids at any age or parents of any level of credulity to surgically alter themselves, their kids or each other. Until then 18 seems a good number and not too long to wait.

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2 hours ago, wmw999 said:

How many children should commit suicide or spend miserable teenaged years before making up for Chloe Cole? How about minors getting nose jobs — is that off the table? Braces?

Parents make decisions for their minor children. We hope most of them are right, but they aren’t always. Where does the state draw the line?

Wendy P. 

Vivisection for starts.

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8 hours ago, Coreece said:

The only one that should be making that decision is the person that's going to have to live with it for the rest of their life, when both their body and mind are mature enough to do so.

Sorry, kids can't make those kind of decisions.  If an infant presents with both secondary sexual characteristics  (Stage 4 Prader for example) the parent has to make a decision right then and there, because you have to give them a functioning urethra one way or another - and potentially repair an opening between vagina and bladder.

Letting them be incontinent and dooming them to a childhood full of UTI's would not be a good decision.  You, as the parent, have to act for them and make a decision that is in their best interest - whatever you interpret that to be.

And it isn't just secondary sexual characteristics, either.  If the infant has partial anencephaly, the parents have to decide to attempt a repair or terminate care.  In SMA type 1, the parents have to decide when to terminate care - because there are no good long term outcomes.

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The implication that there is a flood of kids regretting their transition and detransitioning is a right-wing myth.

Recent studies (Gender Identity 5 Years After Social Transition | Pediatrics | American Academy of Pediatrics (aap.org)) show that the rate of youths who socially transition at a young age who then transition back are extremely low, in the vicinity of 2%, and that the vast majority of those who do so are doing it due to family pressure, not regret. For comparison, the average regret rate on all regular surgical procedures comes in at around 7%.

Kids who identify as trans early on, almost universally continue that position.

Using emotionally charged (and blatantly inaccurate) language like "vivisection" as opposition to this is a tell that you aren't looking for a scientific basis for your views, and likely consider that trans people are just doing these things for funsies. You're wrong.

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(edited)
10 hours ago, wmw999 said:

How many children should commit suicide or spend miserable teenaged years before making up for Chloe Cole?

That's so vague I don't even know where to begin.  We've all been teenagers where everything and nothing is the end of the world, yet most us make it out alive to realize how foolish we were.  Ya, some of us didn't make it and there are numerous reasons as to why that is - and in many cases it's probably not even the obvious one. Perhaps we can start by not pumping our kids up with hormones and psychotropic drugs. 

10 hours ago, wmw999 said:

How about minors getting nose jobs — is that off the table? Braces?

Really, comparing nose jobs and braces to teenage hysterectomies, mastectomies, orchiectomies, sphalloplasty, metoidioplasty, and vaginoplasty?

Perhaps you've heard of Invisilign or newer alternatives to rhinoplasty?  Regardless, at least the nose is still a nose and teeth still teeth.

Even some acne medications are no longer considered suitable for children.

10 hours ago, wmw999 said:

Where does the state draw the line?

You're barking up the wrong tree.  I'm not about making laws. 

But seriously, if we can't find some common ground and a way to police ourselves more responsibly, then they're just going to draw the line right down the divide and keep shoving laws down our throat.

 

Edited by Coreece

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(edited)
2 hours ago, mistercwood said:

the rate of youths who socially transition at a young age

Perhaps that's the disconnect.  We're talking about the more permanent types of transition, not things like changing your name, hair color and clothing.

Edited by Coreece

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9 hours ago, jakee said:
12 hours ago, Coreece said:

Always better to just tackle it head on, rather than taking the easy way out by attacking someone's religion, 

Again, when did you get so Woke?

 

Winsor himself would be aghast that you are trying to cancel people for criticising any religion.

It isn't just about religion, someone already played the race card and this isn't even about race. (which you once again selectively quoted out of my post)  And it's not even about the criticism itself.  It's about continually using that criticism in lieu of a counter argument inline with wtf we're actually talking about.

I'll give skydekker a pass on this one since I initially didn't see the parallel, which I have to admit is rather entertaining.  But it would've been nice if he also included something tangible about why he disagreed with the original comment he quoted.

I guess a better example of this was when Phil posted that Winsor was just afraid that Harris was going to take away his bibles, lmao.

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(edited)
4 hours ago, billvon said:
12 hours ago, Coreece said:

The only one that should be making that decision is the person that's going to have to live with it for the rest of their life, when both their body and mind are mature enough to do so.

Sorry, kids can't make those kind of decisions.

Sorry for you.  I was replying to the post where you said, "That decision ultimately lies with the CHILD and their parents.

I learned about informal fallacies from people like you and a few others here when I was reading these threads back in my 20s.  I'm in my 40s now, so don't think I haven't noticed every time you do it.

 

Edited by Coreece

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13 minutes ago, Coreece said:

Perhaps that's the disconnect.  We're talking about the more permanent types of transition, not things like changing your name, hair color and clothing.

But are there any permanent transitions occurring with children? I believe the only surgery ever done is potentially a double-mastectomy - technically "reversible", though in fairness you would lose the ability to breast-feed.

The point I was primarily making is that the narrative that these kids don't know what they're doing and are  going to change their minds later, just isn't supported by the data.

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8 minutes ago, mistercwood said:

But are there any permanent transitions occurring with children? I believe the only surgery ever done is potentially a double-mastectomy - technically "reversible", though in fairness you would lose the ability to breast-feed.

The point I was primarily making is that the narrative that these kids don't know what they're doing and are  going to change their minds later, just isn't supported by the data.

Maybe, but let's be honest about pubescent kids. We were all one once and the confusions are both many and mentally disabling on good days. No one sane wants to deprive or deny parents the ability to make hard post birth decisions when medically necessary. But I'm wagering, without evidence, that rural kids who aren't hypnotized by social media, to the same degree as urban kids, are less likely to be overwhelmed by the need to change their gender in middle school. I absolutely believe that any kid who sincerely wants to present as another gender should be allowed the expression and supported. But I do not believe that surgical change should happen before the age of majority.

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2 hours ago, Coreece said:

Sorry for you.  I was replying to the post where you said, "That decision ultimately lies with the CHILD and their parents.

I learned about informal fallacies from people like you and a few others here when I was reading these threads back in my 20s.  I'm in my 40s now, so don't think I haven't noticed every time you do it.

 

Is that a logical AND?

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5 hours ago, mistercwood said:

...you aren't looking for a scientific basis for your views, and likely consider that trans people are just doing these things for funsies. You're wrong.

Facebook identifies 58 different genders for their community, 26 of which are variations of trans-something. Other similarly 'woke' platforms acknowledged just a few more or a few less. Would you assert that there's a scientific basis for all for these?  Somebody somewhere is having a shitload of funsies.

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2 hours ago, mistercwood said:
3 hours ago, Coreece said:

Perhaps that's the disconnect.  We're talking about the more permanent types of transition, not things like changing your name, hair color and clothing.

But are there any permanent transitions occurring with children? I believe the only surgery ever done is potentially a double-mastectomy - technically "reversible", though in fairness you would lose the ability to breast-feed.

Right, mastectomies and the short/long-term side effects of hormone therapy.

The other procedures I listed in my reply to Wendy appear to be limited to adults for now, but I can't say for sure.

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43 minutes ago, kallend said:
3 hours ago, Coreece said:

Sorry for you.  I was replying to the post where you said, "That decision ultimately lies with the CHILD and their parents.

I learned about informal fallacies from people like you and a few others here when I was reading these threads back in my 20s.  I'm in my 40s now, so don't think I haven't noticed every time you do it.

 

Is that a logical AND?

We've been talking about middle school children, now he's moving it to infants that don't have any say in the decision.

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3 hours ago, Coreece said:

It isn't just about religion, someone already played the race card and this isn't even about race. (which you once again selectively quoted out of my post)  And it's not even about the criticism itself.  It's about continually using that criticism in lieu of a counter argument inline with wtf we're actually talking about.

That’s obviously untrue, as all the posts you’ve just replied to show. Windsor’s being accused of being a hypocrite regarding the religion he consistently defends as well as being given solid counter argument. 
 

Again, Winsor would be horrified to have you spouting such Woke nonsense on his behalf.

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52 minutes ago, jakee said:
4 hours ago, Coreece said:

It isn't just about religion, someone already played the race card and this isn't even about race. (which you once again selectively quoted out of my post)  And it's not even about the criticism itself.  It's about continually using that criticism in lieu of a counter argument inline with wtf we're actually talking about.

That’s obviously untrue, as all the posts you’ve just replied to show.

Well ya, after pressing the issue for almost an entire page, we're finally getting somewhere. . .

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5 hours ago, Coreece said:

It isn't just about religion, someone already played the race card and this isn't even about race. (which you once again selectively quoted out of my post) 

I just went back through the thread because I’d missed what you were talking about - that was you! You brought race into the conversation from absolutely nowhere. You played the race card, and then tried to spring a ‘gotcha!’ on the person who responded to it. 
 

If you could stick to discussing the issues instead of playing silly Woke point scoring games then we’d all be better off.

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Gender is a grammatical construct (he, she, it, whatever) but sex is biological.

When you have Supreme Court Justices who can't figure it out, things like this occur:

https://www.nj.com/news/2022/07/transgender-woman-who-impregnated-2-inmates-removed-from-njs-female-prison.html

I am puzzled by why we are such fans of delusion.

 

BSBD,

Winsor

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5 hours ago, jakee said:
11 hours ago, Coreece said:

It isn't just about religion, someone already played the race card and this isn't even about race. (which you once again selectively quoted out of my post) 

I just went back through the thread because I’d missed what you were talking about - that was you! You brought race into the conversation from absolutely nowhere.

You must've missed post  #1285 & #1287

5 hours ago, jakee said:

If you could stick to discussing the issues instead of playing silly Woke point scoring games then we’d all be better off.

It all worked out - after 2 pages of deflection, the Chloe Cole issue was finally addressed.

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