Woke is a Joke

[TriGirl 268]

As usual, John Oliver covered one aspect of this topic (redlining and other housing discrimination, wildly unchecked) pretty succinctly:

 

 

[winsor 186]

6 hours ago, TriGirl said:

As usual, John Oliver covered one aspect of this topic (redlining and other housing discrimination, wildly unchecked) pretty succinctly:

 

 

John Oliver does a good job, but allow me to stress that he is an entertainer/comedian.  A good comedian is typically very bright, and their humor is based in truth.

Much of what Oliver presents is spot on, and the discrimination he describes is routinely horrific.  One flaw is that, while the problems are quite real, quite what constitutes a 'solution' is debatable.

History is rife with injustice.  If ever you find you are being screwed, you are in good company.

I have known rather a few people who came here with nothing, and wound up being very successful despite being anything but European-looking and having rather a few obstacles as a result.

One of the paradoxes of segregation is much of it is voluntary.  According to an article I read some time back (it was not on the internet, so it isn't necessarily true), a study found that Blacks moving to a city would preferentially move to Black neighborhoods, even if they paid more for less in housing, were more likely to be victims of crime, and had worse schools.

I have found that societal norms vary greatly from culture to culture.  Ukrainians are not interchangeable with Russians, Japanese are not interchangeable with Laotians, Kikuyu are not interchangeable with Yoruba and so forth.  Having been a token non-Sicilian, I got a fly on the wall perspective of a world with which I was otherwise unfamiliar.

Back to housing discrimination.  Bankers and real estate agents are in business to make money.  If they make more money in the long run by doing business with one group than another, they are likely to do so.  If WASPs work out to be money in the bank and Blacks are more trouble than they're worth because of issues beyond their control, they'll stick to WASPS.  The prospect of having a thriving community go the way of Baltimore or Detroit is a tough sell, regardless of the details.

In some instances people who bucked the system and invested in Black communities lost everything, so you don't hear about them.  Even if you want to invest in, say, Ferguson, MO, you couldn't afford the insurance.

The vast majority of what John Oliver has to say is completely true.  However, the problems are complex and ill suited to simplistic 'solutions.'

 

BSBD,

Winsor 

[gowlerk 1,903]

1 hour ago, winsor said:

Back to housing discrimination.  Bankers and real estate agents are in business to make money.  If they make more money in the long run by doing business with one group than another, they are likely to do so. 

Just like robbing banks is a good way to make money. But we have rules against that. Being an efficient way of making money does not justify morally corrupt actions.

[winsor 186]

2 hours ago, gowlerk said:

Just like robbing banks is a good way to make money. But we have rules against that. Being an efficient way of making money does not justify morally corrupt actions.

Agreed, but when all is said and done the only businesses that endure are the ones that pay attention to the bottom line.

In Watts, Newark, Ferguson, and Baltimore, businesses that were put out of business by forces beyond their control are still out of business.

Businesses that stayed clear of neighborhoods with severe social and economic issues fared better.

I gather in San Francisco 'shrinkage' is such an overwhelming problem that turning a profit is problematic.  Nobody that wants to stay in business is going to open a retail establishment where paying for goods is optional, and those who are there may well pull up stakes.

 

BSBD,

Winsor

[olofscience 420]

51 minutes ago, winsor said:

Businesses that stayed clear of neighborhoods with severe social and economic issues fared better.

Ah, the old "not doing business with black people is just business sense, not racism". Self awareness isn't one of your strong points is it?

[billvon 2,384]

On 8/5/2021 at 10:35 AM, winsor said:

Agreed, but when all is said and done the only businesses that endure are the ones that pay attention to the bottom line.

In Watts, Newark, Ferguson, and Baltimore, businesses that were put out of business by forces beyond their control are still out of business.

Businesses that stayed clear of neighborhoods with severe social and economic issues fared better.

Yet another post where you discuss CRT issues in a thread where you claim such discussion equates to "staring at your navel and wallowing in 'the conversation'" - and further, that it is unacceptable.

Odd.

[winsor 186]

6 minutes ago, billvon said:

Yet another post where you discuss CRT issues in a thread where you claim such discussion equates to "staring at your navel and wallowing in 'the conversation'" - and further, that it is unacceptable.

Odd.

Let me walk you through it.

Just because CRT chooses to view race as a prime mover for everything does not give them a copyright on anything that deals with race, however tangentially.

Thus, your reference to "CRT issues" displays a serious comprehension deficit.  Typical of religious fervor, I suppose.

[gowlerk 1,903]

10 minutes ago, winsor said:

Just because CRT chooses to view race as a prime mover for everything

Well then, there is the source of your disconnect from reality right there with this completely false premise.

Edited August 6, 2021 by gowlerk

[brenthutch 383]

 

[brenthutch 383]

 

[wmw999 2,116]

Content and comment, Brent 

Wendy P. 

[brenthutch 383]

22 minutes ago, wmw999 said:

Content and comment, Brent 

Wendy P. 

Sorry.

ahem….the above two videos illustrate the racism, violence and hypocrisy that underpin the CRT, BLM and Woke movements.

[BIGUN 1,050]

22 minutes ago, brenthutch said:

hypocrisy that underpin the CRT, BLM and Woke movements

Brent, what you and Winsor are doing is "woke-washing" the issue. When you can't address that there is a problem, you start throwing meme's and video snippets at it. You and I served with many men of color. We worked together, slept together, ate together, played together and we had each other's asses. I can't help but wonder if you would be having this same conversation with them and if you did - do you think they'd have your ass when the time came.

A new problem has arisen in the past few years and was highlighted with Ferguson. In the month following the shooting, 105 black men were shot by LE. Some of them justified, most were not. And, it was intensified with George Floyd. But, what it also did was begin a process of exploration into many areas of racism - including legal barriers. 

You know, when you step on a cat's tail, it screams loudly, but you can't blame the cat for the noise when you were responsible for causing the pain. I don't see what the problem is with taking a long introspective look into what's going on and seeing if we can't do a better job of turning barriers into bridges.  Let's not give the issue a dismissive wave of the hand. 

[brenthutch 383]

13 minutes ago, BIGUN said:

Brent, what you and Winsor are doing is "woke-washing" the issue. When you can't address that there is a problem, you start throwing meme's and video snippets at it. You and I served with many men of color. We worked together, slept together, ate together, played together and we had each other's asses. I can't help but wonder if you would be having this same conversation with them and if you did - do you think they'd have your ass when the time came.

My thoughts on the matter are closely aligned with Allen West, a black man I served with in Italy (‘83-‘84 D bat. FiST platoon 1/509 Airborne) who is now running for the Republican nominee for Texas governor.  

Edited August 6, 2021 by brenthutch

[BIGUN 1,050]

20 minutes ago, brenthutch said:

Allen West, a black man I served with (‘83-‘84 D bat. FiST platoon 1/509 Airborne) 

His military CV doesn't indicate that he served with the 509th.

[brenthutch 383]

26 minutes ago, BIGUN said:

His military CV doesn't indicate that he served with the 509th.

1/509 transitioned to the 4/325 during that period.  Same unit different designation 

Edited August 6, 2021 by brenthutch

[BIGUN 1,050]

55 minutes ago, brenthutch said:

 Same unit

Nevertheless, read about it for yourself. Not what the talking heads have to say.

[billvon 2,384]

3 hours ago, winsor said:

Let me walk you through it.

Just because CRT chooses to view race as a prime mover for everything  . . . 

It does not.  That is as inaccurate as saying that the NTSB thinks that pilot error is the cause of all accidents.  Sure, they look into it, because historically it has been a component of many aviation accidents.  But there are more causes of airplane accidents than pilot error - and there are more things that the NTSB investigates than aviation.

In this thread you have often brought up how historical race relations have bearing on modern race relations.  That is what CRT studies as well.  

 

[winsor 186]

46 minutes ago, brenthutch said:

1/509 transitioned to the 4/325 during that period.  Same unit different designation 

C 2/509, Lee Barracks here.  I was appalled when they reflagged 1st Batt. to a 32x (Glider) designation.  Glider borne troops could be routinely assigned, but Airborne is 100% volunteer, and only 37 out of our original 110 got wings.

I've served under NCOs and Officers of random ethnicities, and Blacks were out of proportion to their demographics.  1st Batt. CO and 8th Division Commander were Black. 

If anyone had a problem with an Officer or NCO, it was because of their personal skills and misdemeanor.  Some of the finest Officers and NCOs I have known were Black, some were Chicano, some were Anglo, some were Navajo... you get the drift.

When one of our unit got kicked out of a bar in Idar Oberstein, the place was trashed by whoever was there when he got back.  It didn't matter what his race was, he was one of US!

My only criterion in my estimation of a Combat Leader was if I'd follow him out the door of a C-130 in pitch darkness while carrying my weight in weapons and gear.  Whether the answer was yes or no, I don't give a damn what he looks like.

Jim Webb was asked what he thought of women in combat.  He replied that he was fine with it when he was in the Academy, but after he spent much time slogging around Southeast Asia it came to his attention that the Corps was changing its PT standards, reducing the number of pull ups so that women could qualify.  He noted that it was all well and good to train by touch football rules, but if you're going up against the Green Bay Packers, that wasn't a good idea.

I know it sounds harsh to say to people whose forbears had a rough time of it should suck it up and get over it, but I've known enough people who lost EVERYTHING and got on with their lives successfully.  Some of them had numbers tattooed on their arms and whatnot.

Where I work we hire whoever is the most qualified.  Period.

Whether someone looks like a Ford Model or a Packer's linebacker, they are likely there because of their PhD dissertation and unique skill set.  If we started hiring people for reasons other than their being reliable and professional, there would be a great deal of uproar from all quarters.

If your forebears had a hard time of it, you're in good company.  Either way, if you choose to be part of the team, you are an asset and will be treated as such.

Any ideology that is based on racism, whether 'good' or 'bad' racism, is an abomination.

 

BSBD,

Winsor

[winsor 186]

18 minutes ago, billvon said:

It does not.  That is as inaccurate as saying that the NTSB thinks that pilot error is the cause of all accidents.  Sure, they look into it, because historically it has been a component of many aviation accidents.  But there are more causes of airplane accidents than pilot error - and there are more things that the NTSB investigates than aviation.

In this thread you have often brought up how historical race relations have bearing on modern race relations.  That is what CRT studies as well.  

 

I have yet to come across one shred of evidence to support your standpoint.

CRT uses race the way a drunk uses a lamppost - for support rather than illumination.

[brenthutch 383]

53 minutes ago, BIGUN said:

Nevertheless, read about it for yourself. Not what the talking heads have to say.

Why would you question the veracity of my claim of service w Lt. West?

 

36 minutes ago, winsor said:

C 2/509, Lee Barracks here.  

BSBD,

Winsor

Named after Robert E. Lee……

and before our left wing brethren blow a woke gasket…….

https://www.routeyou.com/en-de/location/view/47899331/lee-barracks

[billvon 2,384]

59 minutes ago, winsor said:

I have yet to come across one shred of evidence to support your standpoint.

OK.  I've spoken to a professor who teaches it, as well as several students of the study.  Was interesting to hear their perspectives.

Also I guess I made a poor assumption above.  Do you think that the NTSB claims that everything is pilot error?

[winsor 186]

5 minutes ago, billvon said:

OK.  I've spoken to a professor who teaches it, as well as several students of the study.  Was interesting to hear their perspectives.

Also I guess I made a poor assumption above.  Do you think that the NTSB claims that everything is pilot error?

You haven't provided anything more substantial than snark.

NTSB? I never volunteered an opinion.

 

[billvon 2,384]

24 minutes ago, winsor said:

NTSB? I never volunteered an opinion.

Which is why I asked.

Quote

You haven't provided anything more substantial than snark.

So examples of CRT study subjects?  Quotes from MLK when you mentioned him?  Lists of examples of systemic racism?  You consider all that "snark?"

I think I see your problem.

[winsor 186]

40 minutes ago, billvon said:

Which is why I asked.

So examples of CRT study subjects?  Quotes from MLK when you mentioned him?  Lists of examples of systemic racism?  You consider all that "snark?"

I think I see your problem.

Okay, so in addition to snark you've further convinced me that CRT is as racist as anything the KKK (who see themselves as a "white civil rights organization) claims. You present CRT racism as good, but I think racism is evil 

I guess that's a real problem.