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accuracy canopy

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>If anyone has first hand knowledge of the characteristics of accuracy canopies, I would love a PM and move this offline.


Good call. If it were me I'd start by asking Mike Owens. He's around here some and goes by the name of Sparky. Or MJOsparky, or something like that. Good luck. It seems like you've thought this through well.

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And all should keep in mind as well that we have a new accuracy category at Nationals: sport accuracy (not to be confused with zone acc for the swoopers). For the 2014 poster who talked about a sport canopy to get within a few meters -- you should see the sport acc competitors. We had a jumper at Collegiates (Joe Gerner) who hit seven consecutive dead centers (it's a 12" disc) just at that competition. I believe his record was 53 or 56 consecutive dead-center landings, on what I recall was a 150 (don't recall the model).

The rules of sport acc require that a competitor perform a controlled landing -- e.g., stand-up, contained within the designated landing area (15m radius circle). Any extra touch on the ground (knee, hand, etc) gets you a 15m penalty, and a landing outside the circle also results in a 15m penalty. It is possible to have a score of 45.0 on a single jump (15m from the center, plus going/landing outside the circle, plus taking a knee or sliding in). Dead center is still 0.0. Therefore, this kid landed with first touch on the center disc at a competition seven consecutive times, and only took 2-3 steps after first touch each time.

So yes, being within a few meters of your target each time you lane -- yeah, I'd say is the sport canopy level of accuracy. But actually being able to control your landings to within a few inches of your intended landing area is also perfectly legitimate with a smaller sport canopy.

YMMV, of course! ;)

See the upside, and always wear your parachute! -- Christopher Titus

Shut Up & Jump!

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I am an amputee, my right arm is missing about 5" down from the elbow.. I am currently using a PD Navigator 240 have shortened the brakes where i have no slack but still in full flight. I have extended toggle on one side with a velcro lining.. I wear a elastic compression sleeve over my arm with a velcro strip.. The toggle is secure with no danger of dropping it. on days we have a little wind landing it's not a big problem if I slide in and I never try to run out a landing.. I am a senior, 70 years old.. I have a D license but most of my jumps were rounds or PC's.. I have been back in the sport 2 1/2 years after a 42 year lay off .. I can crash land all the time within 20 m's.. My quest is to find a canopy I can consistently slow up and make soft stand up landings in no wind conditions... I have seen this done with demo canopies but I am not sure what they were.. I have only made about a hundred + jumps since starting back.. due to the landings being a little hard on my old body .. I want to stay active as long as I safely can.. and really nice soft slow standups would really help me do that...

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mathrick

That will only serve to worsen the landings.[/QUOTE]

No.

The landings will be great.

Enough control range to sink is more important for classic accuracy approaches than achieving full flight, so people with shorter arms set their brake lines for a bit of tail deflection with the toggles at their guide rings.

[QUOTE]
It will lower the maximum speed, yes, and the speed given amount of movement on brakes will result in, but it will do nothing to make landings softer. It will make them harder.



Parachutes shaped (thick airfoil) and sized (0.7 pounds/square feet) for classic accuracy approaches land great on hard ground (you can use a big boulder instead of a tuffet) from about 3/4 brakes although you sacrifice pin-point accuracy by not finishing with a sink to a controlled crash landing.

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***You're both right about accuracy canopies, though I wouldn't consider accuracy landings to be "good", rather they're acceptably shitty and it's your job to hit the soft target :).
[/QUOTE]

They can be great, even atop big boulders where you need to run to the front edge to keep your pilot chute out of the river (Don't get down-wind of a tight landing area when no place looks like a suitable alternative).

Unlike more modern shapes which flatten out with a little brake and maintain a similar glide until just short of stalling, more toggle steepens the approach (even with no wind) from about 2:1 in full flight to straight down in a full sink.

Normally you fly your approach at a 1:1 glide ratio using 2/3 brakes.

Transition to a full sink high above a target and you won't have any lift left to provide a soft landing without padding from pea gravel or an inflated tuffet.

Don't finish your approach with more than 3/4 brakes and there's enough flare to land softly.

[QUOTE]
But my impression was that demostalker1 was not asking for a classic accuracy canopy, but rather hijacking the original thread to ask about a canopy that will land softly in general tight spaces that aren't accuracy tuffets with limited brake range (I'm guessing for demos maybe? Or maybe just a very small LZ). For which a Parafoil is not necessarily the answer. But I might be wrong of course.
[/QUOTE]

Some form of accuracy/demo/BASE canopy with life left (a $100 1000 jump F111 car cover won't work) loaded around 0.7 pounds per square foot is the right tool for that application.

With experience and consistent winds you can get frisbee-disc accuracy out of a sport canopy stopping within a step or two with full-flight or accelerated approaches, even at higher (~1.8 pounds/square feet, 8000 feet density altitude) wing loadings.

Unfortunately, a 5 MPH wind change for 10 seconds of final approach is a 70 foot change in where you'll be landing with a contemporary sport canopy appoach.

The huge range in glide with accuracy or BASE canopies means that's not an issue. It gives you a lot more latitude in approach precision - you don't need to be at a particular spot 1000' off the ground.

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demonstalker1

What would you consider the best canopy for soft landings in a tight area.. I am about 205 in my jumpsuit no gear.. I have a limited range for brakes.. only can get about 3/4 brakes?
[r



Some sort of accuracy/demo/BASE (not vented) 7-cell around 300 square feet with the brakes set short to allow a full flare.

If using a BASE canopy have a sail slider made to make the openings pleasant. Below 1000 feet at terminal you want them to be speedy, but at skydiving pull altitudes you have plenty of time.

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Hah!
Hah!
Seeing as how it has been 30 years since my last BASE jump ..... I may not be the best advisor on which BASE canopy to buy.
You will get more recent information on BASE-specific forums.
Remember that modern BASE canopies evolved from the 7-cell main canopies that were fashionable during the 1980s. For example, I did my second BASE jump with a 220 square foot, 7-cell Cruislite made of F-111 fabric with Dacron lines.
Two lines evolved from those main canopies: modern reserves and BASE canopies. Though the size for BASE canopies has evolved larger for softer landings on rough terrain. These days I would buy a 300 square foot BASE canopy from one of the companies that specializes in making BASE gear: Apex, Altair, Consolidated, Performance Designs, Squirrel, etc.
I am severely biased towards Apex because I worked with most of the principals: Annie Helliwell, Jimmy Pouchart (sp?), Todd Shoebotham and his brother and trust them.

An inexpensive option is finding a 1980s-pattern main with only a few jumps.
The second least expensive option is finding a larger reserve (250-300 square feet) and asking your local rigger to sew on a bridle attachment (maybe $100 worth of sewing).

In conclusion: any of the top half-dozen BASE manufacturers will sell you a decent canopy. Some BASE canopies are specialized for wing-suit or low-objects, etc. and BASE-specific forums will give you the most recent advice.

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demonstalker1

I am an amputee, my right arm is missing about 5" down from the elbow.. I am currently using a PD Navigator 240 have shortened the brakes where i have no slack but still in full flight. I have extended toggle on one side with a velcro lining.. I wear a elastic compression sleeve over my arm with a velcro strip.. The toggle is secure with no danger of dropping it. on days we have a little wind landing it's not a big problem if I slide in and I never try to run out a landing.. I am a senior, 70 years old.. I have a D license but most of my jumps were rounds or PC's.. I have been back in the sport 2 1/2 years after a 42 year lay off .. I can crash land all the time within 20 m's.. My quest is to find a canopy I can consistently slow up and make soft stand up landings in no wind conditions... I have seen this done with demo canopies but I am not sure what they were.. I have only made about a hundred + jumps since starting back.. due to the landings being a little hard on my old body .. I want to stay active as long as I safely can.. and really nice soft slow standups would really help me do that...


I only have a handful of landings on BASE canopies, but given the information you've provided, I'd be reluctant to recommend a BASE canopy.

You may need a new container to hold the bigger canopy.

BASE canopies aren't designed for terminal skydiving openings. Since you're 70 years old, it might take some experimenting with sliders to get acceptable openings. There probably aren't that many people in the skydiving world who have extensive experience with taming the openings of BASE canopies for skydiving.

And, it appears you'll have to slightly modify the toggles to accommodate your physical limitation.

It all adds up to a fair amount of improvisation on your equipment just so you can land on no wind days without running out your landings.

BASE canopies are trimmed steeper compared to skydiving 7-cell canopies. It would be hard to guarantee that you won't have to run out your landing on a BASE canopy as much as a Navigator.

Before trying to modify all your equipment around a large BASE canopy, I would recommend you try a Triathlon or Spectre sized the same as your Navigator, or slightly larger if your container will hold it.

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demonstalker1

Thanks for the advice DontPanic.. I wonder about a 288 Manta?


The last 288 Manta I landed was on worn out student gear, and I'm sure my impression is colored by that experience.

But I have a hard time seeing a 288 Manta being a solution.

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jumpsalot-2

WOW DUDE .... BASE canopies are like the complete opposite of how you just described them ..... :S


Please re-read the problems expressed by the original poster.

I stand by my opinion that spending several thousand dollars to re-configure his skydiving gear around a BASE canopy is the wrong suggestion.

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DontPanic

***Thanks for the advice DontPanic.. I wonder about a 288 Manta?


The last 288 Manta I landed was on worn out student gear, and I'm sure my impression is colored by that experience.

But I have a hard time seeing a 288 Manta being a solution.

Why? It's a large canopy, designed for students. It's slow, docile and lands easy. I think it would be a good solution.

Ragged out old F111 ones are kind of unforgiving, but I've jumped newer ones that were quite nice.

I know an "old guy" who jumps one. ZP topskin, F111 bottom. He loves it.

Flight Concepts shows them as available on their site.
"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

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riggerrob

Hah!

The second least expensive option is finding a larger reserve (250-300 square feet) and asking your local rigger to sew on a bridle attachment (maybe $100 worth of sewing).
[/QUOTE]

Precision Raven canopies through the Super Raven came with a bridle attachment so they could be used as mains or reserves (with only one preceding familiarization jump as a main allowed).

A Super Raven IV (282 square feet) used as a reserve with corresponding low pack-job count could be very affordable.

***
In conclusion: any of the top half-dozen BASE manufacturers will sell you a decent canopy. Some BASE canopies are specialized for wing-suit or low-objects, etc. and BASE-specific forums will give you the most recent advice.



Some BASE (Vertigo Dagger) and reserve (PD reserve) canopies fly more like contemporary skydiving mains and less like classic accuracy canopies.

Without the ability to flare all the way I might stick with something more traditional which slows down horizontally and vertically with brake application and is more tolerant of not finishing a flare.

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