How long till Kabul falls?

[jakee 1,254]

4 hours ago, bigbearfng said:

It just gets so old to keep hearing y'all say this. Biden has been in there for plenty long enough to change things. He already changed a lot of what Trump did just by executive orders. So NOW it all falls on Biden.

The only thing to change that would make a worthwhile difference is not leaving. Then pretty soon the Taliban, understanding that the deal is over, start attacking coalition troops again. Then you need another troop surge to push the Taliban back to where they were 5 years ago. Then you have a decision to make - do you stay forever with deployment numbers in the tens of thousands (because that's what it will take to stop the Taliban from rebounding again) or do you stay just for a generation with overwhelming numbers of troops, diplomats, educators, utility constructors etc. with a unified strategy and unlimited budget to do what it takes to actually build a sustainable Afghan state? 

 

That last one is a trick question, by the way. There has never been and never will be anything remotely resembling the political will to commit to building an Afghan state. Whenever we left, however we left, Afghanistan was going to fall. That it happened immediately instead of a couple of months later makes no difference to anything but the optics.

[Phil1111 908]

6 hours ago, bigbearfng said:

It just gets so old to keep hearing y'all say this. Biden has been in there for plenty long enough to change things. He already changed a lot of what Trump did just by executive orders. So NOW it all falls on Biden.

Wrong, again.

"In 2001, when the Taliban were weak and ready to surrender, the U.S. passed on a deal....Within a few weeks, many of the Taliban had fled the Afghan capital, terrified by the low whine of approaching B-52 aircraft. Soon, they were a spent force, on the run across the arid mountain-scape of Afghanistan....

It was in the waning days of November 2001 that Taliban leaders began to reach out to Hamid Karzai, who would soon become the interim president of Afghanistan: They wanted to make a deal.

“The Taliban were completely defeated, they had no demands, except amnesty,” recalled Barnett Rubin, who worked with the United Nations’ political team in Afghanistan at the time....

But Washington, confident that the Taliban would be wiped out forever, was in no mood for a deal.

“We don’t negotiate surrenders,” Secretary of Defense Donald H. Rumsfeld said in a news conference at the time, adding that the Americans had no interest in leaving Mullah Omar to live out his days anywhere in Afghanistan. The United States wanted him captured or dead."

Arrogance of GOP leaders and officials. Democrats having to clean it all up. RNC supporters and officials conveniently having memory issues regarding history. Which category are you in?

Edited August 23, 2021 by Phil1111

[kallend 1,620]

 

 

The lying liars on the right are at it again:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2021/08/19/fact-check-photo-plane-full-afghan-men-shared-2018/8163796002/

[kallend 1,620]

8 hours ago, kallend said:

 

 

The lying liars on the right are at it again:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2021/08/19/fact-check-photo-plane-full-afghan-men-shared-2018/8163796002/

And again:

https://newsmeter.in/fact-check/crowd-rushing-to-watch-nfl-game-passed-off-as-chaotic-scene-at-kabul-airport-682225

[kallend 1,620]

The Art of the Deal, by Donald Trump:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-51689443

[piisfish 135]

At least they have ice cream 

[ryoder 1,380]

WTH???

Politico: U.S. officials provided Taliban with names of Americans, Afghan allies to evacuate

[JoeWeber 2,294]

2 minutes ago, ryoder said:

WTH???

Politico: U.S. officials provided Taliban with names of Americans, Afghan allies to evacuate

Yes, but 40% were anti-vaxxers. The rest should have had different friends.

[bigbearfng 9]

20 minutes ago, ryoder said:

WTH???

Politico: U.S. officials provided Taliban with names of Americans, Afghan allies to evacuate

No shit! I'd really like to know who these dumbshit "US officials" are and by whose order it was done.

[JoeWeber 2,294]

16 minutes ago, bigbearfng said:

No shit! I'd really like to know who these dumbshit "US officials" are and by whose order it was done.

If you don't want your name known, well, you are too late. If you want a bus load of people to pass through Taliban lines what would be your solution? Have everyone lie and go without the documentation they will need to enter Kabul Airport? Send a SEAL Team to escort the bus? How about accept reality within the confines of the shit agreement Trump laid on us and play ball? Sometimes there are no perfect choices.

[Phil1111 908]

1 hour ago, ryoder said:

WTH???

Politico: U.S. officials provided Taliban with names of Americans, Afghan allies to evacuate

Well he had to do something because:

"trump also bears responsibility for having made it harder to evacuate tens of thousands of Afghans and their families who risked their lives working with the U.S. According to an aide to former Vice President Mike Pence, Trump’s immigration team went out of its way to impede the application process of America’s Afghan allies seeking asylum and to reduce the number allowed to come in via Special Immigrant Visas, which allow Afghans who risked their lives to support U.S. forces to immigrate. That undoubtedly contributed to the backlog that has slowed the evacuation process this month."

Above from "The Afghanistan airport explosion happened under Biden but traces back to Trump

After ISIS-K claimed responsibility for the Kabul airport attack, Biden blamed Trump for the chaotic withdrawal. He was right."

[kallend 1,620]

9 hours ago, Phil1111 said:

 

Above from "The Afghanistan airport explosion happened under Biden but traces back to Trump

After ISIS-K claimed responsibility for the Kabul airport attack, Biden blamed Trump for the chaotic withdrawal. He was right."

Meanwhile for some perspective on numbers, back in the USA 1162 people were reported dead of COVID19 yesterday, just in Florida and Texas, whose GOP governors stubbornly block attempts to slow the spread of the virus.

[bigbearfng 9]

12 hours ago, Phil1111 said:

Well he had to do something because:

"trump also bears responsibility for having made it harder to evacuate tens of thousands of Afghans and their families who risked their lives working with the U.S. According to an aide to former Vice President Mike Pence, Trump’s immigration team went out of its way to impede the application process of America’s Afghan allies seeking asylum and to reduce the number allowed to come in via Special Immigrant Visas, which allow Afghans who risked their lives to support U.S. forces to immigrate. That undoubtedly contributed to the backlog that has slowed the evacuation process this month."

Above from "The Afghanistan airport explosion happened under Biden but traces back to Trump

After ISIS-K claimed responsibility for the Kabul airport attack, Biden blamed Trump for the chaotic withdrawal. He was right."

The Taliban had already broke some of the terms of the previous agreement. In doing so leaving it open for Biden to change the way things are going to go. (Which Biden could do anyway) So enough already with everything is Trumps fault, how about looking at the guy thats there now and has the power to change things for the better.

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

47 minutes ago, bigbearfng said:

The Taliban had already broke some of the terms of the previous agreement. In doing so leaving it open for Biden to change the way things are going to go. (Which Biden could do anyway) So enough already with everything is Trumps fault, how about looking at the guy thats there now and has the power to change things for the better.

Better how?

Please be specific.

When Biden took office, there were 2500 troops left in country.

What, exactly, should Biden have done?

Send a few tens of thousands of troops BACK??
Restart the whole thing all over again?
Then all of the critics would hammer him for that (and IMO, they would have been correct).

Biden said something to the effect of:

It's not the agreement I would have made. But it was made by the US Government and I'm going to honor that.

I'll give him at least some credit for attempting to show the world that the US will have a bit of consistency. That he's not going to just toss out everything the previous administration did for the hell of it. That he's not going to try to destroy the previous President's legacy out of spite.

You know, like Trump did.

[ryoder 1,380]

ABC News: Special Forces Vets Volunteered To Run Covert Evacuation Of 630 Afghan Allies

[bigbearfng 9]

8 hours ago, wolfriverjoe said:

Better how?

Please be specific.
 

Basic common sense...get US Citizens out first, then Afghan interpreters, leave thru Bagram airbase that is much easier to defend, destroy our equipment that you don't want to leave (including US military uniforms!) then the military leaves. Also just listen to military commanders and the intel. 

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

7 minutes ago, bigbearfng said:

Basic common sense...get US Citizens out first, then Afghan interpreters, leave thru Bagram airbase that is much easier to defend, destroy our equipment that you don't want to leave (including US military uniforms!) then the military leaves. Also just listen to military commanders and the intel. 

You mean the military commanders that said to close down Bagram?

https://www.newsweek.com/after-kabul-airport-carnage-trump-republicans-hammer-bidens-decision-abandon-bagram-1623536

[ryoder 1,380]

CENTCOM: U.S. forces conduct drone strike against ISIS-K planner, target killed

[JerryBaumchen 1,046]

1 hour ago, ryoder said:

CENTCOM: U.S. forces conduct drone strike against ISIS-K planner, target killed

Hi Robert,

Jerry Baumchen

 

[JoeWeber 2,294]

3 hours ago, bigbearfng said:

Basic common sense...get US Citizens out first, then Afghan interpreters, leave thru Bagram airbase that is much easier to defend, destroy our equipment that you don't want to leave (including US military uniforms!) then the military leaves. Also just listen to military commanders and the intel. 

Man, that sort of thinking is the problem. Biden did listen to his military commanders and they made their recommendations based on intel. What you want is after the fact fantasy. 

[bigbearfng 9]

10 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

Man, that sort of thinking is the problem. Biden did listen to his military commanders and they made their recommendations based on intel. What you want is after the fact fantasy. 

The problem I have is when Biden ordered our military not to go past the airport perimeter. Commanders on the ground ignored that order/said FU or whatever and went out to rescue a group of stranded US citizens.

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

10 hours ago, bigbearfng said:

The problem I have is when Biden ordered our military not to go past the airport perimeter. Commanders on the ground ignored that order/said FU or whatever and went out to rescue a group of stranded US citizens.

When and where did he say that?

Got a story or a quote?

Seriously, I did a quick search and came up empty.

 

[JoeWeber 2,294]

On 8/27/2021 at 9:08 AM, bigbearfng said:

The Taliban had already broke some of the terms of the previous agreement. In doing so leaving it open for Biden to change the way things are going to go. (Which Biden could do anyway) So enough already with everything is Trumps fault, how about looking at the guy thats there now and has the power to change things for the better.

Thanks for the analysis. Do you really believe you have any clue what is actually going on? You know, like the whole geopolitical thing or what our military commanders recommend? 

[wmw999 2,116]

7 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

Thanks for the analysis. Do you really believe you have any clue what is actually going on? You know, like the whole geopolitical thing or what our military commanders recommend? 

How hard can it possibly be? Kind of like being a politician, just get a “regular Bubba” to do things, and they’ll get done. 

Wendy P. 

[sfzombie13 307]

On 8/28/2021 at 1:10 AM, bigbearfng said:

Basic common sense...get US Citizens out first, then Afghan interpreters, leave thru Bagram airbase that is much easier to defend, destroy our equipment that you don't want to leave (including US military uniforms!) then the military leaves. Also just listen to military commanders and the intel. 

ya know, had we been getting the afghan allies out starting last year in feb, when the agreement was signed, they would have all been gone by now.  had we started getting americans out maybe in june of this year, they would also have been out already.  what happened to stop that?  go on, tell me since you obviously know more than anyone else about what is going on.  from what i saw, it worked pretty well using the kabul airport, but i wasn't on the ground there, so it may not have been, but over 80k folks evacuated in one week is pretty damned good for me. 

 

now, had they been acting like they cared rather than acting like republicans, we could have done it a little better.  as it is, we are still pretty terrible at keeping our promises to our allies, and i would not partner with the us if i were another nation except as a very last resort.  as for destroying OUR equipment before we left, well, i was under the impression we gave/sold it to the afghanis, but haven't been keeping track since i left that place almost 20 years ago now.  you did get me thinking about what happened to all of the shit we left in the desert after desert storm, now i gotta go on a search to see if i can figure it out.

Edited August 29, 2021 by sfzombie13
paragraphs are nicer to read