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Chemtrail

Rental gear and damage/loss responsibility

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This question has certainly been discussed before, though I can't locate it.

If I'm using rental gear from a DZ, ( paying a fee of course) and the canopy malfunctions on the first jump. Slider hangup, tension knot and right hand cells not inflating, autorotation .. Said canopy having been packed by a member of staff. I cutaway and land uneventfully under the reserve but the main was chopped over a large forest area and nobody can find it. Who is responsible for the loss?

Mitigating factors in this particular case: The packer concerned is angry because he says the lines were too old and fuzzy, slider hangups were happening regularly. In other words, the lines needed replacing many jumps ago.

I'm aware the policy could vary from place to place, country to country, though if there is a general consensus on this , I would appreciate any advice. Thanks.

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As you say, rules and regs can change from one place to another, but as far as my understanding goes, common sense should be the same everywhere. You are going to be able to answer your own question:

- who's the owner of the rig?
- what caused the malfunction? the equipment or the jumper?
- what's the general state of the rig?

So, well, those above are the questions I've asked myself, and from my honest point of view you shouldn't be held responsible for anything in this case, given the facts you provide...

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If you are paying the standard $25 to $30 per jump that most DZs charge to rent student gear all the risks go to the DZ. We charge $30 and we factor those potential losses into the price.

Sometimes I rent gear seasonally to someone for a much better price, but then I get the user to agree in writing to be responsible for loss.

If you did not sign or at least verbally agree to assuming the risk of loss then you are not responsible. The same thing goes for handles thrown away. DZs charge enough for rental to pay for them.

The last thing I want is young inexperienced jumpers and students factoring in the cost of equipment before they cutaway.
Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

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Thanks Sombra 2 and Gowlerk, "The last thing I want is young inexperienced jumpers and students factoring in the cost of equipment before they cutaway". Very good point. The case in question relates to my daughter who just started skydiving in March, she has 42 jumps to date, the reserve was yesterday. Unfortunately the DZ director made the stupid comment That they would be sending the bill if they can't find the gear. This is in Germany, they usually try that kind of trick just to see the response and hope the person yields to the demand. This regardless of ruining someones week and causing anxiety and sadness to a young person just starting out in the sport. I will be certainly using my lawer for this dispute.

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What specifically did the DZ write on the rental agreement form? Or is the situation vague?

My DZO might be a bit of a jerk about some things, but he has made it very very clear on the rental forms what the situation is. For their "student equipment" the DZ is responsible for losses (although a student is expected to chip in, in some moderate amount, with any search); for their different "rental equipment" the jumper is fully responsible (and it is always left unpacked -- so the renter packs it or pays for the pack and assumes full responsibility.)

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It really depends where you are and what waivers were signed and what they said.

Sq1 at Perris has an incredibly detailed waiver that states that if the customer has a cutaway they are responsible for the gear. They work with the price since its used but you are responsible for the cost of the main and any freebag, bridle that may have gone with it, handles and all repack costs. We also would make sure they knew that we cared way more about them and their lives so they are all instructed to not follow gear down and not worry about it, we will deal with it when the dust settles. We were always happy they saved their lives first. Gear can be replaced, lives can't.

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I was curious about this and asked this when I started STP training. The instructor told me as long as it's a real malfunction on rental gear then the DZ will absorb the costs.

I just had to cutaway today on my 18th jump while still in training because of tension knots. It was rental gear and it was packed by a staff member. They were having a hard time finding it, not sure if they ever did.

In my opinion if it's a real malfunction on rental gear then the DZ should be responsible. It won't take them long to make up the costs with the amount of jumps I plan on doing there.

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Do you have photographs of the fuzzy suspension lines?

For decades now, we have known that fuzzy lines increase the incidence of slider hang-ups and tension knots.

If lines really were fuzzy, then the DZO was responsible 'cus he rented out shoddy gear. If a staff member packed it, then that shifts responsibility towards the DZ to repair, repack and replace lost components.

Reminds me of a rigging course that I taught a few years back. A candidate brought a rental rig from her DZ. It had cracked stiffeners, loose grommets, popped harness stitching, etc. More than I could repair while teaching a class of junior riggers. The candidate was angry when I refused to sign on top of her practice pack job. She said that the DZO would be angry with her and just get another rigger to repack it ... cracked stiffeners and all.....

As for the quality of Square One's rental gear ...."when the dust settles" ..... made me laugh! Perris Valley can be mighty dusty during the summer and even muddier during the winter! I washed a lot of rental rigs covered in dust or mud, back when I rigged for SQ1. SQ1 maintained their rental gear way better -than most DZs - when I rigged for them ... er ..... last century.

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I'm gonna be an asshole here...

If this is not a student rental situation, then you are licensed. If you rent gear with fuzzy lines, you made the call to jump with fuzzy lines. Speak up when you notice it, and get the shop to address it. If you don't feel knowledgeable enough about gear to give a basic inspection of the gear you rent, find someone to teach you, preferably the instructors who should have taught you in the 1st place.

Being licensed means you get to make your decisions.
Remster

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Lots of grey area here.

If known policy is that renters replace all damaged or lost gear, then you agree to that, or you buy your own gear and don't rent.

I don't think students should be responsible for lost gear, it is a cost of business, and part of training students. Still you may be a student, but you are still an adult. If that is the DZ policy and you don't agree you should vote with your feet and go to a different DZ.

Either way there shouldn't be the charge of a new replacement canopy. A new canopy was not lost.

There should be the cost of a ragged out student canopy that needs a new line set!

DZ should also try to keep their rental gear in better shape, it is in their best interest to do so, regardless of who has to pay for the loss. It doesn't sound great that this canopy was known to be having slider hang ups but was still being rented out.
"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

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May I join you in assholedom?

The other side of the debate is that the owner/rental agency is responsible for maintaining the gear.

If I may use a parable: if you rent a car - and the tires are bald - and slide off an icy road - then the car rental company is partially liable for allowing their poorly-maintained car on the roads.

This almost happened to me a few Decembers ago. I phoned ahead to reserve a car and specifically requested winter tires, with the explanation that I was driving to a ski resort up in the mountains.

When I picked up the car, it had summer tires.
A heavy snow storm hit the ski resort while I was up there. Fortunately my friend let me sleep on his couch so that I did not have to drive home in the dark on snow-covered roads. By next morning, plows had cleared the highway.

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My answer that the DZ is responsible is assuming that the customer is paying the regular $30 or $25 plus pack rate that applies to students. If that is the case, then the DZ should be taking the risk. If there is a different deal in place, all parties need to be aware of it beforehand.

Sometimes I rent transition gear to newer jumpers to get them over the hump to smaller canopies that they will buy as first gear. I will always put down in writing the replacement cost of losing components as well as the cost if they outright lose a whole rig. They don't have to agree to this. They have the option of leaving the rig on the rental rack and using it when they want if it is available. But then they pay full student rental price, and I assume the risk myself.
Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

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This does vary by country and legal system. English law has the concept of a verbal contract, though obviously that isn't as easy to prove as a written contract. Evidence might be advertising / website info, evidence from others who have heard discussions, or who have dealt with similar incidents in the past. Also, UK (and I think EU) law has the concept of 'fit for purpose' or 'merchantable quality', which might be relevant. Also, if the DZ is knowingly renting out packed kit to inexperienced jumpers and that kit is in a condition where a knowledgeable jumper would not consider it fit to use, then health and safety legislation may apply.

IANAL so I'm not giving advice to the OP, just pointing out that contract law does vary by country and that other legislation may be relevant. Particularly the health and safety aspect since, if the kit really is as bad as described, the next inexperienced jumper with a mal might not be so lucky.
Anne

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While I won't reinforce your own opinion of yourself. Perhaps you are not aware of all the facts. My daughter had just received her own rig, she was attending a canopy course on this DZ. The instructor suggested she take a DZ rig for the first instruction jump as it contained a larger more docile canopy. It was pre packed with no way of inspecting the lines. After the malfunction, the summer resident packer was pissed with the DZ director and openly said, "If you find the canopy, don't bring it back to me until it's been relined". Now if he will repeat this story in a legal proceedure, I'm not sure. But that's how it went down. Neither my daughter or myself will pay one cent for this fiasco. It's their tough luck. They should be happy that we don't take it further for wrecklessly poor maintenance of life saving equipment. Also for the record, 4 weeks ago they had 9 malfunctions on one weekend (28 caravan loads) something stinks.

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It sounds like your daughter had a complex situation to deal with, But,

Quote

It was pre packed with no way of inspecting the lines.



No. She chose not to open the main to check it.

I get it. I've jumped a friends' rigs plenty time when I had to borrow one (for whatever reason), and I never opened it. It was also my choice to not open it.

Now, if the lines were in fact crap, then the shop (or DZ or person) who rented it out runs a crappy business. But that fact does not negate your daughter's personal responsibility in jumping that rig.

Sounds like you're lawyering up already.... Awesome.
Remster

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JerryBaumchen

Hi adagen,

Quote

This does vary by country and legal system.



My apologies; and you are correct. Even each state in our 50 states may have specific law to negate what I posted.

My post was in general of what basic tort law here in the US.

Jerry Baumchen


I try to avoid playing lawyer on the internet, and I am not a lawyer in real life. Knowing how to read tax code and tax court cases isn't close to tort law.

I agree with what you said above Jerry. But I was approaching it from the non legal side. We operate to a certain extent on gentleman agreements that aren't written but I hold myself to, and I hope others return the favor.

So yes if there isn't a written rental agreement it may be unenforceable, but if both parties are aware that the policy is that non-student jumpers are responsible to pay for damage and loss than the right thing to do is to replace the gear since jumping it is accepting those terms on a ethical level, even if it isn't a legal requirement.

Same as jumping a friends gear, you break it, you lose it, you replace it. I don't whip out rental agreements to jump a friend rig, or let someone jump mine.

Like I said above we are adults and if that is the DZ policy and it was made known we can do the adult thing and not jump the gear if we aren't willing to take on the risk of loss. I kind of think shirking that responsibility on a legal technicality is kind of similar to violating the unspoken pact that skydivers don't sue.

Of course I am not the one dealing with the situation, so I don't know what was known by the parties, and how reasonable (or unreasonable) the DZ operators are being.

If they stuck me with the bill for a brand new canopy I would tell them to pound sand at that point. :|
"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

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Quote

I just had to cutaway today on my 18th jump while still in training because of tension knots. It was rental gear and it was packed by a staff member. They were having a hard time finding it, not sure if they ever did.



I'm going to jump on the asshole bandwagon and remind people that part of being a skydiver used to mean being part of a family. If you cut away someone else's gear (personal or rental) your ass better be out in the woods looking for that shit. That's just common courtesy.

I don't mean to be harsh to RyanMarshall, I don't know what your situation was. Maybe you offered to help look. If so, good on you. If you didn't, you need to remember that the DZ is a business, but it can also be so much more than that. Friends helping friends is what it should be about, not fucking lawyers and contracts.

- Dan G

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With your 4000 jumps, and from the comfort of an arm chair, you can analyse this and that, and chip in with clever retrograde advice. Now imagine you are young person with a handful of jumps, it's all new, but you trust in the system. Descisions have to be made on the spot. Had my daughter been wiped out via reserve problem, or off site landing. Would they also have the balls to send me a bill for their dodgy antique canopy that got lost in the woods? I've never used a lawyer in my life for anything and I hope I never have to. Skydiving is a high risk sport, we all accept that, there is no place for lawers within the context of acceptable risk. The camaraderie of the skydiving community also extends to going easy on a young person with limited financial means.There are many hepful comments on this thread. I'm grateful for the advice. But sarcasm, less so. But hey, you said it yourself with your opening comment!

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Hi Doug,

Quote

I don't know what was known by the parties



I agree with everything that you say. I have loaned my gear out many times in years past; and have borrowed other's gear with that understanding, spoken & unspoken. However, we were all experienced jumpers. From reading here, I do not think that this person was an 'experienced' jumper.

The old hidden handshake doesn't get it with me.

Jerry Baumchen

Re: "the unspoken pact that skydivers don't sue"

Those days are long gone.

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Hey. You come to a online forum posting limited info on a situation that happened to a loved one. I get it: you don't like hearing comments that disagree with your opinion of the situation (I don't mean that as sarcasm: it's really only natural). New skydivers are cuddled these days: I may not be that old, but I started at a time where you had to take of yourself a lot more in this sport. You asked specifically about "Policy"; not what locals would do to help out a new jumper out of "camaraderie".

"Now imagine you are young person with a handful of jumps, it's all new, but you trust in the system."... I hope she learned. And I really don't mean that in any negative or sarcastic way. I really do hope she becomes more involved in her equipment and looking out for herself.

Skydiving is much more a business than a culture these days. Good or bad, it's the way it is. Buyer beware.
Remster

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