Global warming solutions (on topic)

[wolfriverjoe 1,339]

30 minutes ago, olofscience said:

...Minor nitpick, batteries are not renewables. They're for energy storage rather than energy production.

True, but without some sort of energy storage, the lack of consistency & dependability with typical renewables requires large scale storage.

The sun goes down at night and is sometimes obscured by clouds. The wind dies down. 
Storage is essential for those to become viable alternatives to gas, coal or nuke.

[olofscience 420]

5 minutes ago, wolfriverjoe said:

True, but without some sort of energy storage, the lack of consistency & dependability with typical renewables requires large scale storage.

The sun goes down at night and is sometimes obscured by clouds. The wind dies down. 
Storage is essential for those to become viable alternatives to gas, coal or nuke.

Yes but this power reserve basically backs up several fossil fuel sources - notably, providing power when a coal-fired power plant in Queensland suffered an explosion in May.

So why aren't people criticising coal power plants for their susceptibility to explosions?

[billvon 2,379]

4 hours ago, metalslug said:

Do you really think the AER's decision to keep coal power going will depend on public opinion?

You said it would depend on that.  If you have changed your mind, great!

Quote

Then perhaps Neoen SA should not have made contractual promises in that regard

They did make promises, and they did deliver those stabilizing services.  AEMO has admitted this.  The grid near Hornsdale is quite stable.  It's not as stable over a thousand miles away.

If AEMO expected one battery plant to stabilize all of Australia's grid, then they may be in for a rude awakening.

Quote

I expect the AEMO would have already examined their own grid and traced the problem to Hornsdale before filing papers.

I am trying to imagine, say, Enron doing an internal investigation, deciding that they are at fault, and abandoning millions of dollars in profit.

If they investigate, and find out they are at all at fault, they lose.  If they don't investigate, and sue, they could win big.  The answer is pretty clear if profit is your only motive.

[JoeWeber 2,294]

5 hours ago, olofscience said:

Yes but this power reserve basically backs up several fossil fuel sources - notably, providing power when a coal-fired power plant in Queensland suffered an explosion in May.

So why aren't people criticising coal power plants for their susceptibility to explosions?

Exactly. Let's stick to criticizing them for causing reactor meltdowns.

[brenthutch 383]

On 9/29/2021 at 11:55 AM, gowlerk said:

Yes, it is limited in what it can do. The battery will not be able to continue to provide power through a multi-day power system failure either. The TX event was a failure to invest in cold weather protection because it is rarely needed 

Not only is it rarely needed, it would be counter productive.  In the hot Texas summers, heat is the enemy and turbines made for cold winters would overheat in the hot Texas sun.

[JerryBaumchen 1,046]

Hi Bill,

While I do not believe that EV cars will solve the Global Warming crisis; IMO this is a big step in the direction:  Tesla becomes a $1 trillion company after Hertz orders 100,000 electric cars - oregonlive.com *

And, I found this car quite interesting:  2021 Toyota Mirai Fuel Cell Vehicle | Innovation is Power

As of now, it is only available in California due to that being the only state with hydrogen refueling stations.

Jerry Baumchen

*  It is my understanding that Hertz is owned by Ford Motor Co; those guys who say they will soon be producing only electric vehicles.  The Ford Electric Vehicle Strategy: What You Need to Know | Ford Media Center

[gowlerk 1,901]

10 minutes ago, JerryBaumchen said:

It is my understanding that Hertz is owned by Ford Motor Co;

At one time is was, but no longer. It also was once owned by GM, but that was in the '20s of last century!

[brenthutch 383]

The notion that anything the US does will have any impact on reducing global CO2 levels is nothing less than magical thinking.

Edited October 26, 2021 by brenthutch

[olofscience 420]

6 hours ago, JerryBaumchen said:

And, I found this car quite interesting:

Fuel cell cars are basically electric cars with a fuel cell instead of a battery, so you can theoretically convert a tesla by replacing its battery with a fuel cell.

Not much point in doing that though, hydrogen is a nightmare to handle.

With the Hertz order TSLA just passed $1 trillion market cap though, remember what the troll was saying about it? 

Edited October 26, 2021 by olofscience

[Phil1111 905]

9 hours ago, JerryBaumchen said:

Hi Bill...

*  It is my understanding that Hertz is owned by Ford Motor Co; those guys who say they will soon be producing only electric vehicles.  The Ford Electric Vehicle Strategy: What You Need to Know | Ford Media Center

 

8 hours ago, gowlerk said:

At one time is was, but no longer. It also was once owned by GM, but that was in the '20s of last century!

Hertz recently emerged from bankruptcy and its new CE0 is a former Ford executive.

[Phil1111 905]

2 hours ago, olofscience said:

.....With the Hertz order TSLA just passed $1 trillion market cap though, remember what the troll was saying about it? 

But isn't he wrong about almost everything? The market cap of Tesla today would allow it to buy Ford($62.78B), GM($83.8B),Fiat Chrysler ($30.9B),Toyota($240B), Honda, etc. oh heck the rest of the ten largest auto makers in the world

High gasoline prices will do the most to drive energy conservation and EV introductions. IMO they are a good thing. Its just too bad that for Dems, The GOP and Americans high gasoline prices are seen as a national emergency.

[wolfriverjoe 1,339]

1 hour ago, Phil1111 said:

...High gasoline prices will do the most to drive energy conservation and EV introductions. IMO they are a good thing. Its just too bad that for Dems, The GOP and Americans high gasoline prices are seen as a national emergency.

Yup. When gas spiked to $4 or $5/gal back in 08 & 12, the car makers were hurting really bad. 

Everyone wanted to get better economy, and buying trends showed that.
The big cars, trucks & SUVs that get terrible fuel mileage were the big profit makers.
The little efficient cars were actually sold at a loss to meet CAFE requirements.

Of course, when gas prices dropped, so did the demand for fuel efficient cars.

Part of the problem is that fluctuating prices make it hard to budget. So people on tight budgets have to cut something out to pay for the gas to get to work, grocery store, ect.
Politicians listen when voters scream that they're going broke.
Americans are way, way, waaaaaaaay to used to cheap gas. 
I've suggested in the past that there should be an adjustable tax on gas to help stabilize the price consumers pay.
When prices are higher, the tax is lower. When prices drop, the tax goes up.

It will never happen, but it's an idea.

[gowlerk 1,901]

1 hour ago, Phil1111 said:

High gasoline prices will do the most to drive energy conservation and EV introductions. IMO they are a good thing. Its just too bad that for Dems, The GOP and Americans high gasoline prices are seen as a national emergency.

The shortages will works themselves out and the prices will stabilize at a lower level. But it will take 18 to 24 months.

[Phil1111 905]

14 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

The shortages will works themselves out and the prices will stabilize at a lower level. But it will take 18 to 24 months.

I'd agree but under-investment in oil and nat-gas are constraints on supply in the short and medium term. The idea that oil is akin to tobacco is scaring away investment/ drilling. Fracking has been shown to be cost ineffective for oil production.

Covid will keep commercial air travel down for at least another year. It uses about 8% of total oil consumption and is currently 40 billion gallons under pre-pandemic consumption.

[SkyDekker 1,120]

14 hours ago, JerryBaumchen said:

While I do not believe that EV cars will solve the Global Warming crisis; IMO this is a big step in the direction:  Tesla becomes a $1 trillion company after Hertz orders 100,000 electric cars - oregonlive.com *

It also made Elon Musk's net worth bigger than ExxonMobile's Market Cap.

[JerryBaumchen 1,046]

8 hours ago, olofscience said:

Fuel cell cars are basically electric cars with a fuel cell instead of a battery, so you can theoretically convert a tesla by replacing its battery with a fuel cell.

Not much point in doing that though, hydrogen is a nightmare to handle.

With the Hertz order TSLA just passed $1 trillion market cap though, remember what the troll was saying about it? 

Hi olof,

Re:  hydrogen is a nightmare to handle.

I've also been of this opinion.  However, it would seem as though Toyota, with their Mirai, seem have over come the 'nightmare.'  Time & more experience should tell us a lot more.

While I have never considered myself to be the greatest Mech Engr to have graduated; I really consider these 'nightmares' merely problems to solve.

Jerry Baumchen

[wmw999 2,114]

One of my brothers spent a few years in the early 90’s working on fuel cells in NM. At the time, they were having trouble making it industrial. And then he moved to a different job for family and didn’t keep up with the old job… This was GM — they were already interested in the technology  

Wendy P. 

[olofscience 420]

3 hours ago, JerryBaumchen said:

I really consider these 'nightmares' merely problems to solve.

They are solvable, but are they solvable cheaply, that is the question.

H2 is a very small, light molecule - just 2 protons and electrons. It can seep through many materials that you would normally think is gas-tight, including many metals. It actually flows around the grain boundaries in many metals, and sometimes they get trapped in those grain boundaries and form bubbles, or make it more brittle (hydrogen embrittlement), and/or react to create hydrides.

Pipes (carbon steel) containing sour crude often got corroded by the sulphur from the inside, and the corrosion reaction would release hydrogen. Since the hydrogen simply zipped through the steel like it was nothing, we could measure the amount of corrosion inside the pipe by simply by taking hydrogen ion measurements from the outside.

[kallend 1,619]

11 hours ago, olofscience said:

They are solvable, but are they solvable cheaply, that is the question.

H2 is a very small, light molecule - just 2 protons and electrons. It can seep through many materials that you would normally think is gas-tight, including many metals. It actually flows around the grain boundaries in many metals, and sometimes they get trapped in those grain boundaries and form bubbles, or make it more brittle (hydrogen embrittlement), and/or react to create hydrides.

Pipes (carbon steel) containing sour crude often got corroded by the sulphur from the inside, and the corrosion reaction would release hydrogen. Since the hydrogen simply zipped through the steel like it was nothing, we could measure the amount of corrosion inside the pipe by simply by taking hydrogen ion measurements from the outside.

Not exactly correct.  Hydrogen atoms and ions can indeed diffuse rapidly through metals and cause embrittlement and other issues.  This is common when free atoms are liberated at a metal surface during electrochemical processes such as corrosion and electroplating, or when water molecules are dissociated during arc welding with damp electrodes. 

 

Hydrogen molecules (H2), OTOH, do not diffuse at any significant rate through metals (except maybe palladium), which is why you can store dry hydrogen gas at high pressure in steel tanks without its leaking out or embrittling the steel.

Edited October 27, 2021 by kallend

[olofscience 420]

oops, that's correct of course.

What was happening was that the hydrogen ions would zip through steel, then if they accumulate at grain boundaries they'd form molecules of H2 which couldn't get through the metal, hence forming the bubbles.

[Phil1111 905]

Considering the slow rate of adoption of public electric charging stations. It would seem as if hydrogen supply stations would present another insurmountable issue.

[wolfriverjoe 1,339]

12 hours ago, Phil1111 said:

Considering the slow rate of adoption of public electric charging stations. It would seem as if hydrogen supply stations would present another insurmountable issue.

A better comparison would be CNG (Compressed Natural Gas) stations.

CNG was the 'fuel of the future' for large trucks a decade or so ago.
Cheaper than diesel, cleaner too.


The motors are a bit more complex, and require more maintenance. 
They also don't produce as much power.

The tanks on the trucks are high pressure cylinders, up to about 3600psi.
There have been a couple rather spectacular explosions after the cylinders were compromised (punctured or ruptured). Not a whole lot different than a truck burning to the ground (which happens a lot more than people realize). 

The CNG filling stations require a good, high pressure hose with a 'quick detach' sealed coupler. 

The problem is that the price of diesel went down along with the price of gas. The peaks seen in 08 & 12 were just that, peaks. They weren't a harbinger of the future. 

So a lot of CNG stations that were built never became operational (there are a lot of them out there).
Ones that are operational never expanded as planned. 
The trucks themselves are worth far less than they "should be".
Nobody wants them. 

As long as gas stays cheap, gas powered cars are going to be tough to replace. 

And given that hydrogen has an EROI that's negative, it's going to be a tough sell.
It's a great idea, and has lots of real potential (fuel cells are awesome). 
But it's got a hell of a 'hill to climb'.
 

[billvon 2,379]

15 hours ago, Phil1111 said:

Considering the slow rate of adoption of public electric charging stations. It would seem as if hydrogen supply stations would present another insurmountable issue.

Around here they are springing up like mushrooms; there are currently over 1000 commercial charging stations in San Diego alone.  And that doesn't even count the private chargers, like the ~100 or so charge points that Qualcomm put in.

But we have a lot of EV's - 35,000 at last count.  The rest of the country won't be like that for a while - but it does indicate that once there's demand, they will appear.

Other San Diego stats via Plugshare:
30 are free
197 are DC fast chargers - 67 CHAdeMO, 84 CCS, 107 Tesla
72 stations installed in the last 90 days

[kallend 1,619]

21 hours ago, Phil1111 said:

Considering the slow rate of adoption of public electric charging stations.. . . . 

There is no shortage of them around where I live, and my former workplace has them in the staff parking lot.

[ryoder 1,380]

To locate charging stations, just pull up Google Maps, and search for: ev charging stations

In the left margin, it gives a breakdown of type of connectors supported by each. 

On the map, it gives status ("open" or "closed") for most stations.

You can move the map to a different area, then click the "Search this area" button that appears at the top.

Finding a place to charge your EV is easy with Google Maps