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gowlerk

Immunization cards (AKA vaccine passports)

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11 hours ago, RobertMBlevins said:

I'm probably older than most of you reading this now. For example, when I went into the Army, that was just over 45 years ago. (*Stretches, creaks, bones cracking.*)

BIGUN chuckles. 

11 hours ago, RobertMBlevins said:

I don't understand all this foo-for-rah about the vaccine question, or the anti-vaxxer folks. 

I was informed by the youngest sister two days ago that our other sister went to the ER and was diagnosed with COVID Pneumonia. Huh? Did you guys not get the vaccines and if not, WTF?

No, they did not. Why? So, we had a good long talk. For most, it's a very do it; don't do it discussion depending on your circle. They live in a rural state, in a rural area.  The most in-their-face information from that circle has been - 1) Not approved, 2) Long-term effects (now we have the myocarditis pointing, see! see!). In Maine, eight people have died with COVID after having received the vaccine. Whoo boy, this is going to take longer than I thought. 

I've been reflecting since our conversation as to why? There are commercials that just say, "Get the vaccine." But, not the WHYS. So, let's address the "WHYS" of getting a vaccine. 

1. Those eight in Maine were in their 80s and yes, they died WITH Covid, but that doesn't mean they died because of COVID. Big difference.

2. Common sense would dictate there've been 2.2 billion vaccines administered with very few side effects. But, there's always been adverse reactions. And, there always will, but the adverse reaction to COVID is >600,000 dead in the US alone. More than all the wars since 1900 COMBINED. Since administering the Vaccine - look at the numbers. We are NOT where we were last year at this time. Check out the 1point3acres website (which has vaccine numbers) or Johns Hopkins and drill down to your county and see what the vaccine has accomplished just in your area.

3. Not Approved/Emergency Use - https://getvaccineanswers.org/question/vaccine-safety?gclid=Cj0KCQjwk4yGBhDQARIsACGfAeuf0was_X1oYvLJlwe56D7_jblY_IUQtipeVlebhbDhFtujAVMCP70aAh70EALw_wcB

4. But, they won't allow it in kids yet -  One of the best all around educational materials for this I've found is: https://www.dailybreeze.com/2021/05/30/final-frontier-covid-19-vaccines-coming-soon-for-young-children/

5. But I've had COVID, so I'm protected - Yes, for now. But, that will wear off by fall and it does not protect you from this new Delta variant. 

The bottom line for us is, we need to stop calling them stupid and realize they're just ignorant of the facts and the competing messages in the world. Treat them like skydiving students and educate them, so they can educate others. Kinda like skydiving - the message from their circle is only 1) great experience, or 2) I know someone who died/injured, don't do it. Most of them are a two income family, with kids, and other factors pulling on them - in life. We can send a better message than  "Stupid for not doing it."

Sis is fine. One day of oxygen, steroids, plasma and antibiotics turned it around in 24 hours.        

Edited by BIGUN
Their; not there
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26 minutes ago, BIGUN said:

The bottom line for us is, we need to stop calling them stupid and realize they're just ignorant of the facts and the competing messages in the world. Treat them like skydiving students and educate them, so they can educate others. Kinda like skydiving - the message from their circle is only 1) great experience, or 2) I know someone who died/injured, don't do it. Most of them are a two income family, with kids, and other factors pulling on them - in life. We can send a better message than  "Stupid for not doing it."

Sis is fine. One day of oxygen, steroids, plasma and antibiotics turned it around in 24 hours.

 

Happy to hear your sister is fine.

I agree that education is great, but not sure that is the main issue here. As your post shows, all the information is already readily available.

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I have a number of friends who are, shall we say, willfully ignorant. In other words, if you address their issues, the goalposts move, because, they just aren't going to get the vaccine. Some of them had friends who died of COVID, and/or were in the "take this seriously because it's real" camp. But they're also proud Trump conservatives, and have modified their views "appropriately." Even took down the FB posts that I saw early on.

Oh well

Wendy P.

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1 hour ago, SkyDekker said:

As your post shows, all the information is already readily available.

Readily accessible isn't the same as having the time to hunt it down. I've been hawking over this for the past year and still stumble over new information. Most middle-income families spend their day, getting the house cleaned up, the kids dressed, ready for school, throw in a load of laundry, breakfast, work, homework with the kids, TV, dinner, dishes, rotate the laundry, fold the clothes, kids ready for bed, showers, time with S/O comes around 9:00 PM. Rinse/Repeat.

IMO we can do a better job of communicating the message WHYs other than - well, if you go do it, we'll put you in the million dollar lottery.     

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1 hour ago, BIGUN said:

Readily accessible isn't the same as having the time to hunt it down.

I'm going to strongly disagree with the idea that these people are anything but willfully ignorant. I know they are from your tribe and that they are not stupid people. How could anyone live through the disruption of the pandemic and not find time to look into this matter? 

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The issue isn't that they haven't heard the argument; it's partly that they have heard convincing things from people they normally trust and give some weight to. So a specific addressing of those issues is necessary.

Yeah, often they're stupid memes, but, well, have you seen some of the breathless anticipation of Trump going to prison lately? Kind of like the Hillary going to prison stuff before. People believe what they want to, and if you actually want them to follow something they're not that invested in, it takes extra effort. And, frankly, herd immunity is worth it.

Wendy P.

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33 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

I know they are from your tribe and that they are not stupid people. How could anyone live through the disruption of the pandemic and not find time to look into this matter? 

They aren't from any tribe. They're about as apolitical as one can get. They don't have time with two special needs children. I've said my piece. Help educate others. Don't help. Whatever.   

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2 hours ago, BIGUN said:

Readily accessible isn't the same as having the time to hunt it down. I've been hawking over this for the past year and still stumble over new information. Most middle-income families spend their day, getting the house cleaned up, the kids dressed, ready for school, throw in a load of laundry, breakfast, work, homework with the kids, TV, dinner, dishes, rotate the laundry, fold the clothes, kids ready for bed, showers, time with S/O comes around 9:00 PM.

Right.  But those people still (for the most part) got their kids vaccinated before school started.  That's not because they didn't have time to get the information over whether vaccines were good or not - that's because their pediatrician told them it was a good idea, and they (wisely) heeded his/her advice when it came to how to care for their kids.

Today, their doctors are telling them that the COVID vaccine is a good idea too - for them and their children.  To muddy that message they have to go out of their way to find anti-vax news sources.  That's the problem.  Those news sources have become weaponized by any number of people (Trump supporters, anti-Biden people, the tinfoil hat brigade) and are targeted at those middle class families.  But no one can get people to accept conspiracy theories if they don't want to; there is an appetite for them, and that appetite is readily fulfilled by any number of sources.

So in most cases it's not that "people don't know."  It's that they are actively consuming bad information.  Some are doing it simply because that's what they "like."  They like FOX News because they like that Hannity guy, or their husband watches it, or their flashy attention-grabbing format works.   Some others are doing it because of what Wendy said - they start with an assumption (i.e. "Biden sucks") work from there ("he's telling us to get vaccinated" followed by "therefore vaccination is bad") and then use that as their filter; anything that supports their assumption gets past the filter.  Most are somewhere in between.  Very few are in the bucket of "just don't know anything about that vaccine."

Yes, I agree that getting more information out there is better.  But it's not that we have to pitch information to fill the void out there; we have to provide information to actively counter the information people are getting via channels that are more attractive to them.  Which is a tall order - and which is why we are struggling to get even 60% of Americans vaccinated.

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1 hour ago, billvon said:

Right.  But those people still (for the most part) got their kids vaccinated before school started.  That's not because they didn't have time to get the information over whether vaccines were good or not - that's because their pediatrician told them it was a good idea, and they (wisely) heeded his/her advice when it came to how to care for their kids.

Today, their doctors are telling them that the COVID vaccine is a good idea too - for them and their children.  To muddy that message they have to go out of their way to find anti-vax news sources.  That's the problem.  Those news sources have become weaponized by any number of people (Trump supporters, anti-Biden people, the tinfoil hat brigade) and are targeted at those middle class families.  But no one can get people to accept conspiracy theories if they don't want to; there is an appetite for them, and that appetite is readily fulfilled by any number of sources.

So in most cases it's not that "people don't know."  It's that they are actively consuming bad information.  Some are doing it simply because that's what they "like."  They like FOX News because they like that Hannity guy, or their husband watches it, or their flashy attention-grabbing format works.   Some others are doing it because of what Wendy said - they start with an assumption (i.e. "Biden sucks") work from there ("he's telling us to get vaccinated" followed by "therefore vaccination is bad") and then use that as their filter; anything that supports their assumption gets past the filter.  Most are somewhere in between.  Very few are in the bucket of "just don't know anything about that vaccine."

Yes, I agree that getting more information out there is better.  But it's not that we have to pitch information to fill the void out there; we have to provide information to actively counter the information people are getting via channels that are more attractive to them.  Which is a tall order - and which is why we are struggling to get even 60% of Americans vaccinated.

Hi Bill,

Re:  or their flashy attention-grabbing format works

Those hot-looking blonds will get your attention everytime.  Gretchen Carlson, anyone?

Both my children & both of their spouses are,  according to Keith's definition, very busy types of people.  However, so far, their entire families, including my 16-yr old grandson, are now vax'd.  The only one not is my 7-yr old granddaughter.  As soon as they have a vax for her, she will be one of the first in line.

You either believe in the science or you do not.  It is really that simple.

Let's face reality, there are still people who believe in a flat earth, they believe that Trump is still POTUS, etc, etc.

Jerry Baumchen

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10 hours ago, billvon said:

that's because their pediatrician told them it was a good idea, and they (wisely) heeded his/her advice when it came to how to care for their kids.

Thanks Bill. Seems like I need to peel back a couple of more layers. In my haste/anger, I failed to ask what the pediatrician recommended. 

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2 hours ago, BIGUN said:

Thanks Bill. Seems like I need to peel back a couple of more layers. In my haste/anger, I failed to ask what the pediatrician recommended. 

you also failed to realize that what they are getting bombarded with, if they consume fox, is propaganda.  that is hard as hell to counter.  it's also all over facebook and most other social media sites, and is very convincing when it confirms your preconceived notions.

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16 hours ago, BIGUN said:

Readily accessible isn't the same as having the time to hunt it down. I've been hawking over this for the past year and still stumble over new information. Most middle-income families spend their day, getting the house cleaned up, the kids dressed, ready for school, throw in a load of laundry, breakfast, work, homework with the kids, TV, dinner, dishes, rotate the laundry, fold the clothes, kids ready for bed, showers, time with S/O comes around 9:00 PM. Rinse/Repeat.

IMO we can do a better job of communicating the message WHYs other than - well, if you go do it, we'll put you in the million dollar lottery.     

Right

15 hours ago, gowlerk said:

I'm going to strongly disagree with the idea that these people are anything but willfully ignorant. I know they are from your tribe and that they are not stupid people. How could anyone live through the disruption of the pandemic and not find time to look into this matter? 

Also right. Therefor insert education. There must be some conservatives of the trump style that can plug vaccines...McConnell, the odd FOX personality....??

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3 hours ago, sfzombie13 said:

getting bombarded with, if they consume fox, is propaganda.  that is hard as hell to counter. 

Please read what I wrote. They are apolitical. They don't have much time for TV and when they do, it's as a family - movies. 

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2 hours ago, Phil1111 said:

There must be some conservatives of the trump style that can plug vaccines...McConnell, the odd FOX personality....??

About all I can offer is to start asking and educating my circle. 

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21 hours ago, JerryBaumchen said:

You either believe in the science or you do not.  It is really that simple.

Let's face reality, there are still people who believe in a flat earth, they believe that Trump is still POTUS, etc, etc.

Jerry Baumchen

Hi Jerry,

I think you've hit the nail on the head. 

Anti-vaxxers (doesn't matter if they are 'general' or 'Covid-specific'), flat earthers, moon landing hoax types, 9/11 'truthers', fools who believe that Trump won, even creationists. 

They ignore science, they ignore reality. Anything that proves them wrong is either 'fake' or 'wrong' or whatever.
They have convinced themselves that it's true. 

Getting the 'anti' types to get vaccinated is going to be virtually impossible. 
They've made their minds up and NOTHING is going to change that. 

I still remember when Ken Hamm had the 'debate' with Bill Nye. 
The question was asked of both of them:
What would make you change your mind on this?
Nye answered "Evidence".
Hamm answered "Nothing". 

That tells you all you need to know about 'educating' the anti-vaxxers.
You can't

I'm done feeling sorry for them.

Bigun's sister has apparently recovered. She may or may not have long term effects. She likely has a pretty big bill for the services. 

Some of the unvaccinated will get very sick. Some will die. I've seen & heard reports that there are places where the infection, hospitalization and death rates for the unvaccinated are similar to what the entire country was experiencing last winter. 

Only the fact that almost half of the adult population is vaccinated is keeping it from getting as out of control as it was. 

 

Stupidity has consequences.

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10 hours ago, BIGUN said:

Please read what I wrote. They are apolitical. They don't have much time for TV and when they do, it's as a family - movies. 

i did read it, and that's why i threw in the part about facebook. even those who don't look at fox news can be influenced by it there.  instagram and twitter also, and a few others, but facebook is bad.

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20 hours ago, wolfriverjoe said:

Hi Jerry,

I think you've hit the nail on the head. 

Anti-vaxxers (doesn't matter if they are 'general' or 'Covid-specific'), flat earthers, moon landing hoax types, 9/11 'truthers', fools who believe that Trump won, even creationists. 

They ignore science, they ignore reality. Anything that proves them wrong is either 'fake' or 'wrong' or whatever.
They have convinced themselves that it's true. 

Getting the 'anti' types to get vaccinated is going to be virtually impossible. 
They've made their minds up and NOTHING is going to change that. 

I still remember when Ken Hamm had the 'debate' with Bill Nye. 
The question was asked of both of them:
What would make you change your mind on this?
Nye answered "Evidence".
Hamm answered "Nothing". 

That tells you all you need to know about 'educating' the anti-vaxxers.
You can't

I'm done feeling sorry for them.

Bigun's sister has apparently recovered. She may or may not have long term effects. She likely has a pretty big bill for the services. 

Some of the unvaccinated will get very sick. Some will die. I've seen & heard reports that there are places where the infection, hospitalization and death rates for the unvaccinated are similar to what the entire country was experiencing last winter. 

Only the fact that almost half of the adult population is vaccinated is keeping it from getting as out of control as it was. 

 

Stupidity has consequences.

Hi Joe,

Re:  They ignore science, they ignore reality.

A perfect example:  Rep. Marjorie Taylor Greene says she doesn't believe in the 'so-called science' of evolution (msn.com)

Jerry Baumchen

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On 6/12/2021 at 3:52 PM, wolfriverjoe said:

Hi Jerry,

I think you've hit the nail on the head. 

Anti-vaxxers (doesn't matter if they are 'general' or 'Covid-specific'), flat earthers, moon landing hoax types, 9/11 'truthers', fools who believe that Trump won, even creationists. ......

 

Stupidity has consequences.

Yes Joe and the same applies to populists together with their politicians. No matter the science or economics studies logic can be denied.

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Talk about awkward. I just heard a D congress critter from NY interviewed on NPR about how it is so unfair that the Canadian border is not open for vaccinated Americans to visit their families and properties up north. And I can sort of agree with him that we should welcome those of our neighbours who have done the right thing. But how are we supposed to know who is vaccinated and who is just plain lying?

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1 hour ago, gowlerk said:

Talk about awkward. I just heard a D congress critter from NY interviewed on NPR about how it is so unfair that the Canadian border is not open for vaccinated Americans to visit their families and properties up north. And I can sort of agree with him that we should welcome those of our neighbours who have done the right thing. But how are we supposed to know who is vaccinated and who is just plain lying?

Didn't we cover this before?

Just ask them who won the election.

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