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JerryBaumchen

One Gutsy Girl

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18 minutes ago, billvon said:

Again, there is nothing in that to claim that therefore a fertilized egg cell is a child.

Po-tay-to; pa-tah-to. A fertilized egg is a living human organism. Throw in whatever silly term you wish to justify the unjustified selfish murder.

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15 minutes ago, billvon said:

But the fact remains that there are several proven ways to reduce abortion:

Baloney! The only ones of those that could in any way be causal are sex education and birth control; neither of which conserves typically oppose. I say "typically" because there is a very small minority of folks who have issues with them.

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22 minutes ago, rcdrury said:

Po-tay-to; pa-tah-to. A fertilized egg is a living human organism. Throw in whatever silly term you wish to justify the unjustified selfish murder.

Whatever is inside a woman's body and what anyone  chooses to call it is none of your business.  You are just a nosey, interfering busybody.

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15 minutes ago, rcdrury said:

Baloney!

?? I provided references for all of those.  Did you not read them?

Quote

 The only ones of those that could in any way be causal are sex education and birth control; neither of which conserves typically oppose. I say "typically" because there is a very small minority of folks who have issues with them.

Unfortunately, those people seem to be in charge of the Republican Party.  Trump ended funding of the UN's birth control program in 2017.  His choice for the Department of Health and Human Services, Teresa Manning, claimed that "contraception doesn't work" and opposes birth control.  He cut funding to Planned Parenthood, one of the largest birth control providers in the US.  GOPer Ken Cuccinelli claimed that "birth control causes abortion."  Mitch McConnell and Marco Rubio support employers who want to make birth control unavailable to their employees via their healthcare programs.  Chris Christie regularly cut birth control funding from public health bills.  Rick Santorum actually said this - "One of the things I will talk about, that no president has talked about before, is the dangers of contraception in this country…. Many of the Christian faith have said, well, that's okay, contraception is okay. It's not okay. It's a license to do things in a sexual realm that is counter to how things are supposed to be."

So yes, they generally oppose birth control.  They oppose it on principle because it lets people have sex without worrying about pregnancy.  They oppose it because they believe it doesn't work.  They oppose funding for it.  They oppose Planned Parenthood, one of the largest provider of birth control in the US.

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40 minutes ago, rcdrury said:

Po-tay-to; pa-tah-to. A fertilized egg is a living human organism.

Absolutely!  And a kidney is a living part of a human organism.  Neither a kidney nor an 8 week old fetus can live outside the body, though.

Quote

Throw in whatever silly term you wish to justify the unjustified selfish murder.

Murder is a legal term.  Per the US Supreme Court, abortion is not murder.  So sorry, nope; will go with them over you.

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1 hour ago, Phil1111 said:

I thought you were a NSA spy?... In any event you're wrong as usual.

I never claimed to be a spy, and I never worked directly for NSA. I worked for Mike Hayden shortly before he took over NSA. He was commander of Air Intelligence Agency and the director of the Joint Information Operations Center, to which I was assigned. I wasn't a spy, but a program manager. I did in fact run several programs that involved NSA and CIA analysts.

As far as my being "wrong," neither you nor anyone else has yet established that; except billvon nailed me on some spelling errors.

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(edited)
2 hours ago, rcdrury said:

Nothing "patriarchal" here; literally hundreds of millions, possibly billions, of women agree.

No one ever said that a woman can not be patriarchal. You ignored the question last time, so I'll ask again. Is abortion allowed in your personal moral code for a woman who is pregnant by rape?

Edited by gowlerk

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10 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

No one ever said that a woman can not be patriarchal. You ignored the question last time, so I'll ask again. Is abortion allowed in your personal moral code for a woman who is pregnant by rape?

I never involve my personal moral code in these discussions.

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16 minutes ago, rcdrury said:

As far as my being "wrong," neither you nor anyone else has yet established that; except billvon nailed me on some spelling errors.

Well, except for the part about men and women's comparative involvement in pregnancy. And in your unwillingness to address in any specific way any of the real-world consequences of pregnancy, and of the possible assignment of the same level of legal responsibility to give men some actual consequences.

The only thing you mentioned was "with due process" being in favor of forced sterilization of men who don't comply. Don't you think that forced birth for women is similar to forced sterilization? It's generally reversable, after all -- costs some money to reverse, but then it costs money to have that baby, too. I'm assuming you're OK with forced paternity tests. Yes, it'll cost money -- but far less in the long run than the loss of productivity, the cost of day care, and the cost of state support for (generally) women who can't overcome those first two.

Wendy P.

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15 minutes ago, billvon said:

Is your goal to reduce the number of abortions, or just to make abortion illegal?  If you had to choose one or the other, which would it be?

I'd be tempted to respond with "reduce the number of abortions," but there are a lot of other variables at work here. It's not that simple. 

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1 hour ago, billvon said:

Absolutely!  And a kidney is a living part of a human organism.  Neither a kidney nor an 8 week old fetus can live outside the body, though.

 

But an 8 week old fetus, or a five-second old fetus, is an ENTIRE human organism; not a part of one.

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10 minutes ago, rcdrury said:

But an 8 week old fetus, or a five-second old fetus, is an ENTIRE human organism; not a part of one.

Basic biology and the law both say differently. It has a potential to become a human. You don't have the courage to say if rape victims can have an abortion or not. I have to assume that is because you understand that the answer would destroy your premise.

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3 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

Basic biology and the law both say differently. It has a potential to become a human. You don't have the courage to say if rape victims can have an abortion or not. I have to assume that is because you understand that the answer would destroy your premise.

Basic biology does not say differently, and the law doesn't say at all. Regardless of whatever euphemistic terminology you wish to apply, the fetus is a biologically complete organism, and it is undeniably genetically human. As far as the rights of rape victims to have an abortion, I did indeed address my feelings on that in a previous post. Rape was one of several examples where I am personally opposed to abortion but where I think it is reasonable to compromise.

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(edited)
11 minutes ago, rcdrury said:

Rape was one of several examples where I am personally opposed to abortion but where I think it is reasonable to compromise.

Yes, of course it is a reasonable compromise. A good girl deserves a choice. One who chooses to have sex does not. But the newly created complete human inside the rape victim? Well.......too bad little fellow.

 

The fact is that abortion is a sad and kind of gross action. No one is "in favour" of abortion. If you don't want one, don't have one. You know what to do to avoid getting a pregnancy. You seem to feel that your viewpoint is morally superior to that of anyone who disagrees. It looks bad on you to insult us like that. The world is full of men, and yes, sometimes women who talk like you but when faced with a problem in their own life choose to secretly go to a clinic far away. Have some respect for them.

Edited by gowlerk
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6 minutes ago, rcdrury said:

Basic biology does not say differently, and the law doesn't say at all. Regardless of whatever euphemistic terminology you wish to apply, the fetus is a biologically complete organism, and it is undeniably genetically human. 

Back to biology school for you. 

Some homework for you; Define "biologically complete organism"

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51 minutes ago, rcdrury said:

I'd be tempted to respond with "reduce the number of abortions," but there are a lot of other variables at work here. It's not that simple. 

I agree!  That is my goal as well.  There sure are a lot of variables - but that affects the implementation, not the goal.

Quote

But an 8 week old fetus, or a five-second old fetus, is an ENTIRE human organism; not a part of one.

No, it's really not.  A five second old fetus (actually called a zygote at that point) is not an entire human organism - it is one cell.  Your kidney is more of an entire human organism than that one cell.  The zygote will probably never become a child; most don't.  They fail to differentiate, or fail to implant, and they get flushed out.  Or they implant and start growing, only to fail at some phase of cell differentiation and result in a miscarriage.  From the point of fertilization only about 30% of zygotes become children.

That zygote, however, does have the POTENTIAL to someday produce a child.

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8 hours ago, rcdrury said:

So, quite possibly several months after birth. Got it. [eyeroll]

at least i know you're trolling and not an idiot now.  sorry about that assumption previously. i am going to need you to think now, this is hard to understand, even for those of us who are a tad smarter than average.  when you have a newborn baby, one right out of the mom, you can lay it down for a few hours without touching it and it will live.  when you take one earlier than about 26 or 28 weeks, you cannot do that.  therefore, before that time, it is not alive, or more precisely, it is a fetus and not a child.  if you can lay it down and walk away for a while, it is a child.  now, carry on with whatever is amusing you currently, as none of it makes any sense in society at large.

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On 6/4/2021 at 4:00 AM, JerryBaumchen said:

Hi folks,

Good for her.  I can only hope that she suffers no consequences:  The speech that high school valedictorian Paxton Smith pulled from inside her graduation gown was not the one she had shown the school. 

High School Valedictorian Swaps Speech To Speak Out Against Texas' New Abortion Law : NPR

Jerry Baumchen

 

Jerry -- I have read through the entire thread, and see where it has gone.  While I, in no uncertain terms, totally agree with what this valedictorian ultimately said, I'm going to have to disagree with her tactics.  Yes, I agree with her message. Yes, I agree with her passion.  Yes, I absolutely agree that this law is dangerous and hurtful.

But those are similar arguments for anyone who wants to pull the same stunt to speak out about other issues.  Notice the spirited debate this thread has sparked.  Imagine if she had used this tactic to speak against parents allowing gender transition for pre-teens?  Just because we agree with her doesn't make her any less brave than the religious teen who slips in a speech about their god instead of the programmed remarks.

Personally, I think the issue of irresponsible TV and media abuse is also a serious, worthy, and courageous topic to address in these out-of-control times.  It affects the health, well-being and prosperity of our country and the possible survival of the republic.  Again, though so many of us do agree that her final topic is worthy of national attention, so is her original topic.  If we let her go without consequences for this tactic, it opens the door for any kid with their own issue to do the same thing.

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5 hours ago, TriGirl said:

...Personally, I think the issue of irresponsible TV and media abuse is also a serious, worthy, and courageous topic to address in these out-of-control times.  It affects the health, well-being and prosperity of our country and the possible survival of the republic.  Again, though so many of us do agree that her final topic is worthy of national attention, so is her original topic.  If we let her go without consequences for this tactic, it opens the door for any kid with their own issue to do the same thing.

In this case, on that particular platform, I'm fine with her going off script. And, just to be clear, I'd also be fine with a HS valedictorian going off script on any subject they are passionate about. 

The typical HS graduation speech wouldn't get this kind of attention. Even one that went off topic and onto a controversial subject. 

If it was something bigoted & hateful (as your anti-trans example), it would get a fair amount of criticism. 

Any HS valedictorian has worked long and hard to reach that goal. While I mostly doubt that a big part of that goal is to be able to stand up in front of a couple thousand people and tell them 'what's what', it's one of the privileges. 

I'd be more upset if the school had chosen to shut the mic off and silence her. That also goes for stuff I don't agree with.

The actions by the American Legion to shut off the mic during the section of the speech that lauded the freed slaves who's actions were the beginnings of the current Memorial Day holiday were far, far more insulting and offensive (this was posted in the 'deplorables' thread a day or so ago).

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6 hours ago, TriGirl said:

Jerry -- ...

Personally, I think the issue of irresponsible TV and media abuse is also a serious, worthy, and courageous topic to address in these out-of-control times.  It affects the health, well-being and prosperity of our country and the possible survival of the republic.  Again, though so many of us do agree that her final topic is worthy of national attention, so is her original topic.  If we let her go without consequences for this tactic, it opens the door for any kid with their own issue to do the same thing.

Agree about irresponsible media. But have to disagree about the idea that what she did was wrong.

1 hour ago, wolfriverjoe said:

In this case, on that particular platform, I'm fine with her going off script. And, just to be clear, I'd also be fine with a HS valedictorian going off script on any subject they are passionate about. ...

The actions by the American Legion to shut off the mic during the section of the speech that lauded the freed slaves who's actions were the beginnings of the current Memorial Day holiday were far, far more insulting and offensive (this was posted in the 'deplorables' thread a day or so ago).

IMO the valedictorian bit is irrelevant. If a athlete did the same thing I'd see no difference. If a similar HS student on their own initiative came up with the same well thought out speech. It would be well served for open and inquisitive minds to consider the topic. Absent racist, sexist or unlawful topics of course. Debate is important for minds yet to formulate values.

After all the absence of values is what forms GOP supporters.

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8 hours ago, TriGirl said:

Jerry -- I have read through the entire thread, and see where it has gone.  While I, in no uncertain terms, totally agree with what this valedictorian ultimately said, I'm going to have to disagree with her tactics.  Yes, I agree with her message. Yes, I agree with her passion.  Yes, I absolutely agree that this law is dangerous and hurtful.

But those are similar arguments for anyone who wants to pull the same stunt to speak out about other issues.  Notice the spirited debate this thread has sparked.  Imagine if she had used this tactic to speak against parents allowing gender transition for pre-teens?  Just because we agree with her doesn't make her any less brave than the religious teen who slips in a speech about their god instead of the programmed remarks.

Personally, I think the issue of irresponsible TV and media abuse is also a serious, worthy, and courageous topic to address in these out-of-control times.  It affects the health, well-being and prosperity of our country and the possible survival of the republic.  Again, though so many of us do agree that her final topic is worthy of national attention, so is her original topic.  If we let her go without consequences for this tactic, it opens the door for any kid with their own issue to do the same thing.

I don't agree.  I think the circumstances and timing merit praise. She is a Valedictorian in Texas. She slipped in nothing. Rather she gave a full throated rebuke of the antiquated thinking of her state, the Governor of Texas, her neighbors and, for all we know, her family, too. She spoke truth to power knowing there might be consequences. 

The sad reality in America is that a Valedictorian going off script to be god positive or LGBTQ negative is unlikely to cost you an extra cookie much less bad press. I think she'a a hero.

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