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PROGRESSIVE

Pull Out vs Throw Out BOC vs Ripcord

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IMO it depends on your preferred style of jumping.

Headdown / CReW / Attitude other than belly, consider pull out since relative wind from multiple axes might cause a pullout to sneak out too early. And CReW don't need no stinking throwout.

belly / wingsuit, consider throw out or rip cord. Yes, at least one person I know is a ripcord advocate for wingsuiting. 

very few people still use ripcord for anything other than reserve deployment, mainly because of packing challenges IMO.

 

welcome back

 

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Pull out seems to have pretty much died since the introduction of freefly handles with tuck tabs and full bridle protection. Potential for a horseshoe with a throw out vs. potential for a total mal from a floating pull out pud - choose your fighter.

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31 minutes ago, kleggo said:

belly / wingsuit, consider throw out or rip cord. Yes, at least one person I know is a ripcord advocate for wingsuiting. 

 

What the hell? No, please don't tell people to use spring-loaded PCs for anything, the one and only place they belong in is the reserve tray. We moved away from them for a very good reason, and saying "but maybe we should go back to spring-loaded PCs in the discipline where that original reason is most pronounced?" is insane.

Pretty much everyone uses BOC throw-outs for everything, aside from CReW people who sometimes prefer pull-out, and some places (including DFU, the Danish Parachuting Union) actually mandate throw-out for wingsuiting. With the burble a wingsuit creates, throw-out is the least risky method. And for wingsuit specifically, it's possible to have the throw-out pouch integrated in the suit itself, moving it away from the BOC and into the armwing, but that's more of a BASE-specific usage.

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On 6/2/2021 at 10:13 AM, mathrick said:

What the hell? No, please don't tell people to use spring-loaded PCs for anything, the one and only place they belong in is the reserve tray.

 

Thank you for your advice / censorship.

Please read my post carefully.

I am not advocating spring loaded pilot chute use for wingsuiting, but I know someone that does and he is likely more experienced than you.

It works for him, likely not for the vast majority of jumpers.

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On 6/2/2021 at 10:13 AM, mathrick said:

What the hell? No, please don't tell people to use spring-loaded PCs for anything, the one and only place they belong in is the reserve tray. We moved away from them for a very good reason

We moved away from them because heavy PC's launching directly behind your back when you are belly to earth tend to get caught in the jumper's burble and sit there for a while.

Note that wingsuiters do not have that issue.  However, wingsuiters DO have the issue that they have a very large suit that can sometimes get between them and a throwout PC.

Quote

and saying "but maybe we should go back to spring-loaded PCs in the discipline where that original reason is most pronounced?" is insane.  Pretty much everyone uses BOC throw-outs for everything . . . .

"But everyone else does it" is not the greatest reason to stick with something.  Everyone used plain old RSL's until Bill Booth came up with the Skyhook.

Quote

And for wingsuit specifically, it's possible to have the throw-out pouch integrated in the suit itself, moving it away from the BOC and into the armwing, but that's more of a BASE-specific usage.

And thus create the possibility of whole new types of malfunction, where the bridle is misrouted and trapped by the suit, or the suit/container interface is not great and the pin is pulled prematurely.  It can work but comes with new risks.  Similar things happened when belly band hand-deploys were common.  (I'd be tempted to say "going back to a deployment system that failed is insane!" but I trust you will see the issue without that comparison.)

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On 6/8/2021 at 5:47 AM, kleggo said:

Thank you for your advice / censorship.

Please read my post carefully.

I am not advocating spring loaded pilot chute use for wingsuiting, but I know someone that does and he is likely more experienced than you.

It works for him, likely not for the vast majority of jumpers.

I have no dog in this fight but, without casting aspersions on this particular person, I've seen some extremely experienced people doing very stupid things :)

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1 hour ago, base615 said:

I have no dog in this fight but, without casting aspersions on this particular person, I've seen some extremely experienced people doing very stupid things :)

Spring loaded P/Cs are out of fashion for mains. Mostly because they are inconvenient and not collapsible. There is little danger of anyone who doesn't fully understand the nature of them converting to one on a main. That does not make them stupid. The fact that you and mathrick do not understand them and have little to no knowledge of how to use them does not make them stupid. We all use them on our reserves because they work very well. You can be pretty sure anyone who decides to convert his wingsuit rig to one is very likely an experienced rigger and knows what he is doing. Either that or he is working closely with one.

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On 6/9/2021 at 2:17 PM, gowlerk said:

Spring loaded P/Cs are out of fashion for mains. Mostly because they are inconvenient and not collapsible. There is little danger of anyone who doesn't fully understand the nature of them converting to one on a main. That does not make them stupid. The fact that you and mathrick do not understand them and have little to no knowledge of how to use them does not make them stupid. We all use them on our reserves because they work very well. You can be pretty sure anyone who decides to convert his wingsuit rig to one is very likely an experienced rigger and knows what he is doing. Either that or he is working closely with one.

And what makes you suppose I don't understand them or have very little knowledge of how to use them? Moderately dickish of you (and actually wrong) to presume such a thing and, in fact, I never said anything of the sort. I was merely commenting on the use of "I know someone who does it and they're more experienced than you" as an argument for them. I even pointed out that I wasn't casting aspersions on this person when saying it.

BTW, they work very well on reserves for a number of reasons but a key one is that the pilot chute doesn't stay with the canopy after deployment. That's not the case with a main and, unless you had to do it due to shoulder mobility for example. I'd argue that towing a pilot chute full of metal behind most modern canopies wouldn't be a great idea at all.

Edited by base615

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2 hours ago, base615 said:

And what makes you suppose I don't understand them or have very little knowledge of how to use them? Moderately dickish of you (and actually wrong) to presume such a thing and, in fact, I never said anything of the sort. I was merely commenting on the use of "I know someone who does it and they're more experienced than you" as an argument for them. I even pointed out that I wasn't casting aspersions on this person when saying it.

BTW, they work very well on reserves for a number of reasons but a key one is that the pilot chute doesn't stay with the canopy after deployment. That's not the case with a main and, unless you had to do it due to shoulder mobility for example. I'd argue that towing a pilot chute full of metal behind most modern canopies wouldn't be a great idea at all.

I'm sorry I offended you. Please note, I am not advocating for the use of spring loaded P/Cs. I am merely saying that if someone else decides to do so that it is not necessarily an error. It means they have considered the advantages and disadvantages and made a decision that is different from yours, or even mine for that matter.

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9 hours ago, gowlerk said:

I'm sorry I offended you. Please note, I am not advocating for the use of spring loaded P/Cs. I am merely saying that if someone else decides to do so that it is not necessarily an error. It means they have considered the advantages and disadvantages and made a decision that is different from yours, or even mine for that matter.

Agreed. I’m merely saying that I would caution against making that decision on the basis of an experienced person doing it as it wouldn’t be a good option for most of us.

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I only have about 1600 wingsuit jumps.   I also have maybe 2000 jumps (mostly RW) on rigs with a main ripcord/spring loaded pilot chute.  And I'm having a difficult time imaging ripcord main deployment being a good setup for general wingsuit use.  It seems that a spring loaded pilot chute has the potential to increase the possibility of pilot chute/bridle entanglement but I could be wrong, plus a dramatic increase in the potential for the pilot chute just laying on your back after pull. I can however imagine wingsuit body positions to help alleviate those problems but I'm a bit skeptical.  Either way, I'm going to stick with a BOC and recommend others do the same.  Kleggo: I would like to see some video (if any are available, rearward facing go pro or whatever) of those wingsuit jumps using a ripcord and spring loaded pilot chute.  Maybe we can learn something new...        

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On 6/8/2021 at 2:18 PM, billvon said:

We moved away from them because heavy PC's launching directly behind your back when you are belly to earth tend to get caught in the jumper's burble and sit there for a while.

Note that wingsuiters do not have that issue.  However, wingsuiters DO have the issue that they have a very large suit that can sometimes get between them and a throwout PC.

Wingsuits for sure not only have that issue, it's worse. The low pressure zone on top of a wingsuit due to the suit generating lift is substantially greater than the one on top of a belly flier.

Main canopies have gotten sucked in back onto the WS back from a nearly deployed state.

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1 hour ago, lyosha said:

Wingsuits for sure not only have that issue, it's worse. The low pressure zone on top of a wingsuit due to the suit generating lift is substantially greater than the one on top of a belly flier.

Main canopies have gotten sucked in back onto the WS back from a nearly deployed state.

Yup.  I've seen it, and a video from elsewhere also.  I've filmed a bunch of deployment/pull sequences with a rearward facing go pro on my own jumps.  I'd like to see some of the same with a ripcord/spring loaded pilot chute setup.

 

 

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Excellent video dear Binary93!

That is why I always clamp my knees together and tuck my elbows in to reduce the width of my suit as the pilot-chute tries to deploy my main canopy.

Now a little history. Back circa 1980, huge balloon-suits were fashionable for (belly-flying) freefall formations. Those balloon-suits were so huge that spring-loaded pilot-chutes often hesitated in their huge burbles. That is when a variety of hand-deployed pilot-chutes (pull-out and throw-out) were invented to get PCs out to arms' length before releasing them. Hand-deploys decreased the incidence of pilot-chute hesitations.

Fast forward to 2000 and modern wing-suits were introduced. First-adopter WS jumpers quickly realized that throw-out PCs were far more reliable.

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