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cpoxon

USPA Group membership - WAS Fatality x2 - Lodi, CA - 7 August 2016

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The BSRs and FARs are written in blood



Great bumper sticker, now care to answer the question?

How is a GM DZ actually held to a higher standard? Does the USPA audit GM DZ's?

You think Lodi could sign a piece of paper and pay some money and become a GM?

And exactly where does the FAA require a DZ to be a GM?
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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Ron

Quote


The BSRs and FARs are written in blood



Great bumper sticker, now care to answer the question?

How is a GM DZ actually held to a higher standard? Does the USPA audit GM DZ's?

You think Lodi could sign a piece of paper and pay some money and become a GM?

And exactly where does the FAA require a DZ to be a GM?




If I don't take a Flight Review every 2 years does that make me a bad pilot? Maybe, maybe not, but it is indicative of attitude. See Section 2-5 of the following:

www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/handbooks_manuals/aviation/media/pilot_handbook.pdf

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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actually held to the standard? Hard question to answer but by many accounts there is actual little enforcement.

Which is what we want right? Self regulating sport. So the USPA actually stays out of most day to day operations. But God forbid you have a double fatality involving a tandem.

DZ #1
USPA DZ, by the book for the most part, USPA support = operating within the 'industry standard'.

DZ #2
Non USPA DZ, no support, history of not operating within industry standard?

Which DZ do you want to try to defend in the court of public opinion?

I've jumped at Lodi, I don't have a dog in this fight. I've also jumped at a USPA DZ that I've had a very public disagreement with how things operate.

If we want to be self regulating, lets be self regulating and call things out when we see them. You can bash the USPA but I'd sure want their support right now if I was Lodi.
Losers make excuses, Winners make it happen
God is Good
Beer is Great
Swoopers are crazy.

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kallend

***

Quote


The BSRs and FARs are written in blood



Great bumper sticker, now care to answer the question?

How is a GM DZ actually held to a higher standard? Does the USPA audit GM DZ's?

You think Lodi could sign a piece of paper and pay some money and become a GM?

And exactly where does the FAA require a DZ to be a GM?




If I don't take a Flight Review every 2 years does that make me a bad pilot? Maybe, maybe not, but it is indicative of attitude. See Section 2-5 of the following:

www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/handbooks_manuals/aviation/media/pilot_handbook.pdf




You avoided the question again. How does the USPA actually hold a GM to a higher standard?

Simple question John. Answer it and not misdirect.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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kallend

***

Quote


The BSRs and FARs are written in blood



Great bumper sticker, now care to answer the question?

How is a GM DZ actually held to a higher standard? Does the USPA audit GM DZ's?

You think Lodi could sign a piece of paper and pay some money and become a GM?

And exactly where does the FAA require a DZ to be a GM?




If I don't take a Flight Review every 2 years does that make me a bad pilot? Maybe, maybe not, but it is indicative of attitude. See Section 2-5 of the following:

www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/handbooks_manuals/aviation/media/pilot_handbook.pdf


I had an email exchange with Ed Scott regarding all this and still want him fired. His big thing was the GM DZ's pledge to adhere to the BSR's.

Does that mean that I don't need to be a member of the USPA if I jump at a GM DZ? They should have all that covered under their group membership right? Am I not expected, as a USPA member to adhere to the BSR's?

It is total BS.


Judy
Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

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jlmiracle

******

Quote


The BSRs and FARs are written in blood



Great bumper sticker, now care to answer the question?

How is a GM DZ actually held to a higher standard? Does the USPA audit GM DZ's?

You think Lodi could sign a piece of paper and pay some money and become a GM?

And exactly where does the FAA require a DZ to be a GM?




If I don't take a Flight Review every 2 years does that make me a bad pilot? Maybe, maybe not, but it is indicative of attitude. See Section 2-5 of the following:

www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/handbooks_manuals/aviation/media/pilot_handbook.pdf


I had an email exchange with Ed Scott regarding all this and still want him fired. His big thing was the GM DZ's pledge to adhere to the BSR's.

Does that mean that I don't need to be a member of the USPA if I jump at a GM DZ? They should have all that covered under their group membership right? Am I not expected, as a USPA member to adhere to the BSR's?

It is total BS.


Judy

Don't we as individual jumpers pledge to adhere to the BSR's already?

Only difference is, USPA will punish a member for violating them but not a Group Member.

I didn't hear Ed Scott praising Byron for being a Group Member while their King Air was having issues..... Oh wait, shhhhh......

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Jump more, post less!

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It seems Nigel has missed a few questions as he posts so I'll try my best to fill it in. Feel free to correct me, nigel.
StealthyB


Have you ever done a skydive?
...
Who are you?


Nigel: No/I am just a troll pulling your legs.

Ron

How does the USPA actually hold a GM to a higher standard?


Nigel: ba ba ba ba it doesn't.

It would be disingenuous for the USPA itself to say anything other than "we do not enforce any standards; membership means we got paid".

For Ed Scott to use that reporter the way he did is simply racketeering. I believe that is a crime and thus firing him should be the least of his worries if the law means anything.

No way I'm renewing my membership with this clown in office; the fact that I can jump without doing so at a USPA GM shows what GM means, along with all the other unenforced regulations.

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jrodrod

It seems Nigel has missed a few questions as he posts so I'll try my best to fill it in. Feel free to correct me, nigel.
***
Have you ever done a skydive?
...
Who are you?


Nigel: No/I am just a troll pulling your legs.

Ron

How does the USPA actually hold a GM to a higher standard?


Nigel: ba ba ba ba it doesn't.

It would be disingenuous for the USPA itself to say anything other than "we do not enforce any standards; membership means we got paid".

For Ed Scott to use that reporter the way he did is simply racketeering. I believe that is a crime and thus firing him should be the least of his worries if the law means anything.

No way I'm renewing my membership with this clown in office; the fact that I can jump without doing so at a USPA GM shows what GM means, along with all the other unenforced regulations.

I think I'm the 'Nigel' you're referring, but I've no idea what you mean. And those are not my words....

I'm going to bed!

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ED SCOTT SHOULD BE FIRED!



lay off your rubbish. Ed scott is a great guy and has a job to do, and he did (and does) it well.

and to everyone else that enjoys the "Why are we in USPA and what good are they":

If you would prefer....you can go it alone and petition the FAA to be recognized when you decide that you can form your own 'better' sport skydiving organization. One that will have no members because you hold everyone 'accountable' for their actions, and therefore drive away your base.

If you would prefer 'teeth in what USPA does, then perhaps you can then petition the FAA to add the BSRs to their list of FARs so that government inspectors can show up and not only suspend your rating, but impose civil and criminal penalties based on those rules that you demanded be enforced.

I am sure it would be so convenient in this new organization with 'teeth', whether it be your 'utopian USPA' or a local FSDO inspector to come out and remind you as a Tandem Instructor how your drogue on your tandem rig should be maintained and whether or not they like the stitch pattern on that repair, and then ground your system because the way they see it from the book, you are doing it wrong.

Because maintaining your USPA ratings only costs $55/year or whatever it is. But for most, maintaining your FAA certifications costs HUNDREDS of dollars or more per year.

What do you get for your membership? The single most important event that happened financially for your membership was a successful bid by USPA to shut down a federal excise tax on aviation that would have jacked your jump ticket by 10% in the 1990's. That single event alone would have cost everyone 10% more every jump.....figure it out how much that would have cost you and now, figure out your membership costs and get back to me.

They battled the Sales Tax issue for tandems along side a couple of dropzones, ours included and together we successfully used a federal law to rule against any state or county level taxation on ANY skydive.

So sure, go it alone. You take on the federal government and let me know how that works out. I choose the organization that helps develop standards over having non-standards.

I choose to have representation and partnership in government matters than NOT having said representation.

And most of all, if you do not like it, then get elected and change it.

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tkhayes

Quote

ED SCOTT SHOULD BE FIRED!



lay off your rubbish. Ed scott is a great guy and has a job to do, and he did (and does) it well.

and to everyone else that enjoys the "Why are we in USPA and what good are they":

If you would prefer....you can go it alone and petition the FAA to be recognized when you decide that you can form your own 'better' sport skydiving organization. One that will have no members because you hold everyone 'accountable' for their actions, and therefore drive away your base.

If you would prefer 'teeth in what USPA does, then perhaps you can then petition the FAA to add the BSRs to their list of FARs so that government inspectors can show up and not only suspend your rating, but impose civil and criminal penalties based on those rules that you demanded be enforced.

I am sure it would be so convenient in this new organization with 'teeth', whether it be your 'utopian USPA' or a local FSDO inspector to come out and remind you as a Tandem Instructor how your drogue on your tandem rig should be maintained and whether or not they like the stitch pattern on that repair, and then ground your system because the way they see it from the book, you are doing it wrong.

Because maintaining your USPA ratings only costs $55/year or whatever it is. But for most, maintaining your FAA certifications costs HUNDREDS of dollars or more per year.

What do you get for your membership? The single most important event that happened financially for your membership was a successful bid by USPA to shut down a federal excise tax on aviation that would have jacked your jump ticket by 10% in the 1990's. That single event alone would have cost everyone 10% more every jump.....figure it out how much that would have cost you and now, figure out your membership costs and get back to me.

They battled the Sales Tax issue for tandems along side a couple of dropzones, ours included and together we successfully used a federal law to rule against any state or county level taxation on ANY skydive.

So sure, go it alone. You take on the federal government and let me know how that works out. I choose the organization that helps develop standards over having non-standards.

I choose to have representation and partnership in government matters than NOT having said representation.

And most of all, if you do not like it, then get elected and change it.


+1

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SkydiverNigel

***

Quote

ED SCOTT SHOULD BE FIRED!



lay off your rubbish. Ed scott is a great guy and has a job to do, and he did (and does) it well.

and to everyone else that enjoys the "Why are we in USPA and what good are they":

If you would prefer....you can go it alone and petition the FAA to be recognized when you decide that you can form your own 'better' sport skydiving organization. One that will have no members because you hold everyone 'accountable' for their actions, and therefore drive away your base.

If you would prefer 'teeth in what USPA does, then perhaps you can then petition the FAA to add the BSRs to their list of FARs so that government inspectors can show up and not only suspend your rating, but impose civil and criminal penalties based on those rules that you demanded be enforced.

I am sure it would be so convenient in this new organization with 'teeth', whether it be your 'utopian USPA' or a local FSDO inspector to come out and remind you as a Tandem Instructor how your drogue on your tandem rig should be maintained and whether or not they like the stitch pattern on that repair, and then ground your system because the way they see it from the book, you are doing it wrong.

Because maintaining your USPA ratings only costs $55/year or whatever it is. But for most, maintaining your FAA certifications costs HUNDREDS of dollars or more per year.

What do you get for your membership? The single most important event that happened financially for your membership was a successful bid by USPA to shut down a federal excise tax on aviation that would have jacked your jump ticket by 10% in the 1990's. That single event alone would have cost everyone 10% more every jump.....figure it out how much that would have cost you and now, figure out your membership costs and get back to me.

They battled the Sales Tax issue for tandems along side a couple of dropzones, ours included and together we successfully used a federal law to rule against any state or county level taxation on ANY skydive.

So sure, go it alone. You take on the federal government and let me know how that works out. I choose the organization that helps develop standards over having non-standards.

I choose to have representation and partnership in government matters than NOT having said representation.

And most of all, if you do not like it, then get elected and change it.


+1 +1
AAP

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tkhayes

Ed scott is a great guy and has a job to do, and he did (and does) it well.



Yes the guy did an awesome job lying to the public, good enough for jail. I don't think many of us knew what his job description was though until now.

In honor of the good job he did, the USPA can adopt a new logo:
https://imgflip.com/i/19641b

tkhayes

And most of all, if you do not like it, then get elected and change it.


Nice misdirection but people can also not renew or not join.

SkydiverNigel


I think I'm the 'Nigel' you're referring, but I've no idea what you mean.


Obviously. You have intermittent literacy. That's why I helped you answer the questions you missed.

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Yes the guy did an awesome job lying to the public, good enough for jail.



in your apparently misguided opinion.

And Hillary is guilty of 'murder' as well. got it. extremist and alarmist. and you are welcome to your opinion. I am welcome to mine. seen far worse things on every dropzone I have ever visited that some federal crime you think Ed Scott is guilty of.

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Ron

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Ron: it's mostly self-enforcement. We have the BSRs, the SIM, instructor training programs, demonstration of skills-based ratings and licenses, recurrency requirements etc, etc. All in these add up to a pretty solid approach to minimizing the avoidable risks of a dangerous sport.



Again: How exactly is a group member DZ *held* to a higher standard?

Way too many people think the GM program is anything more than sending a check and signing some pledge. If Lodi sent in its check and sighed the pledge, they would be group members.



Ron: for starters, USPA has freely available standards. I've yet to see the Lodi SIM.

And BTW FWIT etc etc I do have a jump or two in the 39 years it will be since I started on 28 Aug 1977.

Blue skies dude😎

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JerryBaumchen

Hi Ron,

Quote

to the best of my knowledge *ever* pulled a GM DZ's 'certification'.



While is has been 20-25 yrs ago, they did pull Ted Mayfield's 'certification.'

Jerry Baumchen

HE was a group member? OMG!

BTW, that DZ was in my airspace. Not once did I ever get called for traffic advisories prior to jumps. I've got a story about that. :S

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Ron: for starters, USPA has freely available standards. I've yet to see the Lodi SIM.

And BTW FWIT etc etc I do have a jump or two in the 39 years it will be since I started on 28 Aug 1977.

Blue skies dude😎



Still does not show how GM DZ's are *held* to a higher standard.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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tkhayes


in your apparently misguided opinion.

And Hillary is guilty of 'murder' as well. got it. extremist and alarmist. and you are welcome to your opinion. I am welcome to mine. seen far worse things on every dropzone I have ever visited that some federal crime you think Ed Scott is guilty of.



Thanks for tapping out but there's another place to post your Hillary stuff. So Scott is not the worst out there, that's great, and irrelevant.

It is not a matter of opinion that USPA does not enforce, and therefore the guy lied, as did you. You are welcome to your own delusions, sure.

Ron


Still does not show how GM DZ's are *held* to a higher standard.


Debating this point reveals this thread as a special ed class. Accordingly, it seems little is accomplished beyond keeping the students distracted from more destructive activities outside class. Here's a spoiler for this apparently trick question: they aren't.

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Cutaway68

***It's true that USPA dz's are held to certain standards and requirements.



Group Member DZ's sign a pledge that they say they will follow certain standards, but they are rarely (if ever) held to these standards from what I've witnessed.

From the 206 crash thread in incidents:

mjosparky

In another thread they are discussing the subject of Group Member pledge and how USPA verifies compliance. This is the third time this DZ has had an aircraft incident and at least two of them involved the use of a private pilot. USPA was aware of this and took no steps to inforce the Pledge. But an Individual Member screws up just once the jerk his Cert. wright now.



And of course, some "individual members" can screw up rather spectacularly and have no consequences. Kinda depends on who you are.
"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

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Ron

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Ron: for starters, USPA has freely available standards. I've yet to see the Lodi SIM.

And BTW FWIT etc etc I do have a jump or two in the 39 years it will be since I started on 28 Aug 1977.

Blue skies dude😎



Still does not show how GM DZ's are *held* to a higher standard.



Why don't you tell us how you think USPA should audit or enforce FAA regulations.
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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kallend

***

Quote


Ron: for starters, USPA has freely available standards. I've yet to see the Lodi SIM.

And BTW FWIT etc etc I do have a jump or two in the 39 years it will be since I started on 28 Aug 1977.

Blue skies dude😎



Still does not show how GM DZ's are *held* to a higher standard.



Why don't you tell us how you think USPA should audit or enforce FAA regulations.

Still waiting for you to explain how the USPA membership means a DZ is held to a higher standard.

But it would not be hard to hold a DZ accountable for say seat belt use or cloud clearance. Maybe threaten to take away the coveted 'Group Membership' you seem to think means so much.

But they don't.

So please, how is a group member 'held to a higher standard'? Maybe answer that question before you start trying to distract.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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http://www.uspa.org/News-Events/News/View-Article/Article/1864/USPA-Acts-to-Ensure-Proper-Tandem-Instructor-Certification

This could help with the argument of "higher standards". Group members check the ratings and licenses. Non group members leave it to personal responsibility. Our sport is all about personal responsibility but it seems not all people are! Sometimes mistakes are made by USPA, for instance I sent in my license renewal and had all the correct paperwork for my rating renewal but they didn't charge me. I didn't even know until I was told I couldn't do a coach jump by manifest because my rating was expired. How pissed are the people who now have to go retake or retest their tandem rating? They trusted the person and DZ that they paid to instruct them on that rating. The people were well qualified but didn't have the qualification to instruct them.
This is not about bashing Lodi, it's about the sport as a whole and stuff like this that the media feeds off of.

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jrodrod

***Ed scott is a great guy and has a job to do, and he did (and does) it well.



Yes the guy did an awesome job lying to the public, good enough for jail. I don't think many of us knew what his job description was though until now.

In honor of the good job he did, the USPA can adopt a new logo:
https://imgflip.com/i/19641b

tkhayes

And most of all, if you do not like it, then get elected and change it.


Nice misdirection but people can also not renew or not join.

SkydiverNigel


I think I'm the 'Nigel' you're referring, but I've no idea what you mean.


Obviously. You have intermittent literacy. That's why I helped you answer the questions you missed.

http://www.uspa.org/News-Events/News/Article/1864/USPA-Acts-to-Ensure-Proper-Tandem-Instructor-Certification

QED. Satisfied now dude?

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