Worst rig

[elias123 0]

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I really think it is not a normal pull-out. the cushion looks the same. But the pilot chute + bridle + lines of your main are all together stuffed in ONE compartment. I thought a pull-out system was basically the same as a pouch at the bottom of the container, only not with a ball/hackey, but a small cushion that can stay firmly into place...

By the way, pull-out is relatively new right? This gear dates back to the early eighties. Did the contemporary pull-out systems we see at almost every DZ today exist back then?

I think you're talking about a Free Fly handle here.

I am in the second part of my post. But I don't understand the difference then between the systems. I do know I think

"In a mad world, only the mad are sane"

[Zlew 0]

and they have a good view of pullout too: http://www.miragesys.com/products/?loc=detail&id=1&iid=1072

[Rstanley0312 0]

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I wasn't knocking Racers as besides one Wonderhog back in the 1970s they are all I've ever owned besides a Reflex. And not only because of the pop tops (although that's a big reason) but because almost every other modern reserve container is built totally wrong.

Ever see these videos . . .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HYIUjKGxagI&feature=player_embedded

http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=889765176342&ref=mf

NickD

That first video is not just an issue with a vector it is an issue when a reserve closing loop is too long. THat can be a problem on may rigs. As for the 2nd...... not sure about that one but I have done that little test on my Vector and it came our very nicely!

Life is all about ass....either you're kicking it, kissing it, working it off, or trying to get a piece of it.
Muff Brother #4382 Dudeist Skydiver #000
www.fundraiseadventure.com

[elias123 0]

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You may be jumping to an incorrect conclusion. First of all, how many jumps does he have? 7 reserve rides means nothing by itself - we need to know the ratio of reserve rides to jumps. Second, you are assuming that the malfunctions were caused by the pull-out system, which may have had nothing at all to do with them.

If you have read my previous posts in this thread, you should already know he has around 1200-1300 jumps. That's an average of roughly one reserve ride every 200 jumps or so. I am not assuming that all of his reserve rides were to blame because of the system he jumps. I know some of his malfunctions had nothing to do at all with his system. But I do think some of them were bacause later that night at the bar he told me that he often had sketchy openings (and yes also reserve rides) when he pulled his handle. This might have something to do with what Rhys mentioned earlier (hanging on to the the pilot chute too long or letting go before the pin is pulled). I didn't say that he had 7 reserve ride only because of this reason/system. You shouldn't assume that I assume that every reserve he had was because of this system. Regardless of how safe this system may be, I, for one, would never jump that kind of setup.

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You have much to learn, little grasshopper...

That is stating the obvious. For what other reason would I be posting and asking these questions here? IMO we all keep learning all the time. Even long time jumpers. Alles kan beter.

"In a mad world, only the mad are sane"

[billvon 2,379]

>So putting the D-bag in the container, then trashing all of the bridle and
>pilot chute on top of it, then closing the container, is still considered safe
>then?

You have to take as much care packing a pullout as you do packing a throwout (ensure the PC is cocked, don't trap the bridle etc.) But as long as you do that, one's not significantly safer than the other. They have different issues (PC in tow vs. lost pud) but they are just different, not necessarily better or worse.

[billvon 2,379]

>As for the Wonderhog, I don't believe Booth is still making those . . .

Microns are Wonderhogs per the FAA. Same drawings, same set of tests to demonstrate compliance to the TSO.

Now, he's made a LOT of changes over the years; the Micron looks nothing like the Wonderhog. But that's true of Racers as well. Beyond the external PC, you'd be hard pressed to identify an old SST as the same rig as a Racer 2K3.

[3331 107]

Main Canopy.

Para Mount 5 Cell. I jumped it from mid 1980 to August 1981. Landed real hard, wouldn't flare or slow down, got renamed Para Thud.

I wasn't the only one that was disappointed in the hype compared to real performance.

I Jumped with the guys who invented Skydiving.

[likestojump 3]

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The Racer has been manufactured continuously since the 1970's.
It has been popular because it works, and it's comfortable.
What other rig has been in production that long?
None.

Wonderhog has been made since the 70s too.

BTW, the C9 canopies have been made for over 50 years. Doesn't make them any more pleasant to land :(

C9 canopies are not still being jumped by sport skydivers - they're for military emergency situations, and sport emergency bailout rigs.

As for the Wonderhog, I don't believe Booth is still making those, and hasn't in quite some time. Decades. He produces the Vector and Micron now.

I believe my challenge stands: What other rig has been manufactured as long as the Racer?

Bzzzzzzzzzz. WRONG.

see a picture. 2008 DOM Micron. see where it says "WONDERHOG" ? Same TSO as the original 1970s Hog.

just like the original Racer is quite different from the 2K3, so is the original Wonderhog from a Micron, yet they both have been made for a long time.

and as far as the C9 - well, it was never made for sport use to begin with, and is still unpleasant to land. All I was pointing out is how something having a long market life is not an indication of it being a superior product. Let's think of the T10s which have been actively jumped by the military for decades. I doubt most of the users would say it's a pleasant experience (when compared to other, more modern gear)

[usernametaken 0]

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>I am curious why you picked a diablo though . . .

They were the #1 canopy to spin up at Perris for a while. They are remarkably unstable with brakes stowed. Once released they seem to fly OK though.

I put 400-500 jumps on a Diablo. Never had a problem or chop.

Kinda tired of the"Know it all" attitude.

I am waiting for Diablo Pilot to weigh in on this issue.

"Think like a man of action; act like a man of thought." -Henri L.
Bergson

[dragon2 0]

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Thank you, thats the one! After the guy closed the container I opened it up again, because when he put the bridle and pilot chute on top of the D-bag, he just trashed it in there and closed it. I later openend it up again so I could neatly stow away the bridle and pilot chute so the chance of a bridle/pilot chute knot/entanglement would be smaller.

Just to clarify, was the jumper present when you did that? If not, you could now have packed him a total malfunction, which is quite easy to do with a pullout if you don't know what you're doing. Most of the packers here @ Teuge when packing a pullout leave the main flap open and the pillow hanging out a bit, so the jumper can check the slack and bridle routing himself.

Tip: on a pullout rig, if you can lift the rig by the handle after packing, you did it wrong!

Other than the last bit of the packing, "stowing away" the pilotchute implies you tucked it away farther than it should be: you're supposed to be able to pull out the pilotchute by hand, you get that right? So the pilotchute needs to be on top of the bag directly under the flaps, with the bridle folded underneath or next to it usually so it runs "free".

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[usernametaken 0]

My first rig was a used "student racer" and a Strong Lopo and Raven 4, for reserve and main, respectively. Hello, does this thing even flare? (I was poor, too)

My next main was a PD 210 (dating myself here) and it gave me tip-toe landings in every condition, every time I jumped. I loved that canopy.

That adjustable lift web sucked and I had to adjust it constantly.

As I have stated before, the DZ was a Racer fanatic and did everything but say "you'll going in with a PC in tow if you don't jump a throw out. I was too young and dumb to know any better.

Btw, here's now NOT to progress in canopies.

Manta>Raven 4>PD 210> Excalibur 170

In perfect conditions in was great. In less than ideal conditions, er, uh, I had to run to the showers and change my undies. Going from a Porsche that you can control to a Formula 1 car is not so smart. Miracle I never hurt myself and learned a lot. Lotsa grass stains on that Talon.

"Think like a man of action; act like a man of thought." -Henri L.
Bergson

[billvon 2,379]

>Btw, here's now NOT to progress in canopies.
>Manta>Raven 4>PD 210> Excalibur 170

Yep. Unfortunately that's been supplanted by progressions like Navigator 235>Sabre2 170>Sabre2 150>Nitro 150 (by 35 jumps.)

[usernametaken 0]

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>Btw, here's now NOT to progress in canopies.
>Manta>Raven 4>PD 210> Excalibur 170

Yep. Unfortunately that's been supplanted by progressions like Navigator 235>Sabre2 170>Sabre2 150>Nitro 150 (by 35 jumps.)

I am grateful to be older, wiser, and free of metal parts.

I have wrestled, skied, jumped out of planes and cliff dived, and have never broken a bone in my life.

*knocks wood*

"Think like a man of action; act like a man of thought." -Henri L.
Bergson

[elias123 0]

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Thank you, thats the one! After the guy closed the container I opened it up again, because when he put the bridle and pilot chute on top of the D-bag, he just trashed it in there and closed it. I later openend it up again so I could neatly stow away the bridle and pilot chute so the chance of a bridle/pilot chute knot/entanglement would be smaller.

Just to clarify, was the jumper present when you did that? If not, you could now have packed him a total malfunction, which is quite easy to do with a pullout if you don't know what you're doing. Most of the packers here @ Teuge when packing a pullout leave the main flap open and the pillow hanging out a bit, so the jumper can check the slack and bridle routing himself.

Tip: on a pullout rig, if you can lift the rig by the handle after packing, you did it wrong!

Other than the last bit of the packing, "stowing away" the pilotchute implies you tucked it away farther than it should be: you're supposed to be able to pull out the pilotchute by hand, you get that right? So the pilotchute needs to be on top of the bag directly under the flaps, with the bridle folded underneath or next to it usually so it runs "free".

Yes the jumper was present at the time. He was sitting two meters next to me when I was packing his rig.

You say it is quite easy to pack a total on this type of setup when not knowing what gear you are dealing with or are beeing careless, so maybe the system ain't that safe after all? Then again maybe I didn't know what I was doing cause I had never seen this system before. Anyway, I plan on calling him as soon as I get his contact info and ask him if he would check it himself and if I did it wrong I will refund the packjob, no problem.

With "stowing away" I mean that I kinda S-folded the bridle (like you would when packing a throw out pilot chute), then neatly placed the S-folded bridle on the right side of the pilot chute wich was, like you say, on top of the D-bag, under the main flap. What the owner of the rig did was just pushing/shoving/trashing pilot chute and bridle on top of each other quite sloppy and shoved it under the bottom flap of the container.

There still is something I do not understand though.
You say: "you're supposed to be able to pull out the pilotchute by hand". In this system, as far as I can follow, the pilot chute is inside the container. How are you supposed to pull the pilot chute by hand if it is tucked away under the flaps? Am I misunderstanding you? Or do you mean by "you're supposed to be able to pull out the pilotchute by hand" that you pull the cushion, wich in turns pulls the pin, and then throw the pilot chute in the slipstream/wind/wateveryouwannacallit?

Thanks for your input and tips Saskia!

"In a mad world, only the mad are sane"

[dragon2 0]

The pullout system is safer in some ways because it allows for a pilotchute when YOU want it, very good for CRW you can time the openings better, a pilotchute out of the pocket is kinda hard to do with this system so good for freeflying mainly, and getting a pilotchute in tow is much harder (though not impossible) with a pullout.

It's UNsafer if you let someone else pack because there are differences in how the bridle runs on various pullout rigs and some are more easy to pack wrong than others, which when done wrong creates a total if the bridle cannot pull the pin free because of no slack or around a flap, this way you can pull all you want but no opening (hence the tip of picking up the rig by the pullout handle if youre not sure you did it right, you'll instantly see what I mean). Another possible malfunction is a floating handle, ie you let go of the handle BEFORE you pulled the pin. Don't know why you would do that, it's easy to feel the pin pop (and kinda cool actually), but this was/is a common malfunction with pullout jumpers. Still safer than a pc in tow, IMO: you can pull the pin by hand or go to your reserve without any mess for the freebag to avoid.

After the pin comes the pilotchute, with you still pulling on the handle, so when you throw the pilochute you have to really throw it because it's not in your hand as with a BOC, there's a length of bridle in between so make sure that pilotchute gets clean air. Which is the one reason I don't jump a pullout, as I wingsuit, where the burble makes a shorter pilotchute throw inadvisable.

Almost all pullouts have their pilotchute reversed from BOC, it's already open when it comes out so it grabs air better. But there's also pullout systems with a "normal" pilotchute... Oh well.

Anyway what the owner did sounds fine to me, as long as everything is hidden under the flaps (no bridle sticking out), usually it'll open just fine I also cover the bridle with the pilotchute on the rare occasions when I pack a pullout, this makes it easier to pack and keep control of the bridle and keep it from sticking out anywhere.

YMMV, but I think this jumper ought to know how to pack his own rig better than a newer jumper who has never seen a pullout before

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[JohnRich 4]

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see a picture. 2008 DOM Micron. see where it says "WONDERHOG" ? Same TSO as the original 1970s Hog.

No picture attached. So why doesn't he still advertise them as a "Wonderhog"?

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just like the original Racer is quite different from the 2K3, so is the original Wonderhog from a Micron, yet they both have been made for a long time.

Point taken.

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and as far as the C9 - well, it was never made for sport use to begin with, and is still unpleasant to land. All I was pointing out is how something having a long market life is not an indication of it being a superior product. Let's think of the T10s which have been actively jumped by the military for decades. I doubt most of the users would say it's a pleasant experience (when compared to other, more modern gear)

But for all that, it still serves the purpose very well for the usage for which it is intended. Otherwise it wouldn't still be in use. "Unpleasant to land" is not necessarily a valid argument against it, when it's designed to be used in the first place only in unpleasant emergency situations. It must be superior to other canopies for bailout purposes, or otherwise the military wouldn't be using them. Aircrew, untrained in ram-air parachutes, may have better odds of injury-free landings with C9 rounds, then ram-airs. And then there's the issue of reliability during high-speed unstable deployments. Sure it lands harder, but for emergency uses, there are other more important criteria that take precedence.

You mentioned T-10's for paratroops - yes, they could get softer landings on ram-airs, but what about all those hundreds of paratroops on mass exits all zinging around the sky in close proximity at 20 mph? The number of canopy collisions would negate any benefit from softer landings. So the T10 lands hard, but it's still the best thing yet for putting large numbers of troops on the ground with the fewest injuries.

[elias123 0]

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The pullout system is safer in some ways because it allows for a pilotchute when YOU want it, very good for CRW you can time the openings better, a pilotchute out of the pocket is kinda hard to do with this system so good for freeflying mainly, and getting a pilotchute in tow is much harder (though not impossible) with a pullout.

It's UNsafer if you let someone else pack because there are differences in how the bridle runs on various pullout rigs and some are more easy to pack wrong than others, which when done wrong creates a total if the bridle cannot pull the pin free because of no slack or around a flap, this way you can pull all you want but no opening (hence the tip of picking up the rig by the pullout handle if youre not sure you did it right, you'll instantly see what I mean). Another possible malfunction is a floating handle, ie you let go of the handle BEFORE you pulled the pin. Don't know why you would do that, it's easy to feel the pin pop (and kinda cool actually), but this was/is a common malfunction with pullout jumpers. Still safer than a pc in tow, IMO: you can pull the pin by hand or go to your reserve without any mess for the freebag to avoid.

After the pin comes the pilotchute, with you still pulling on the handle, so when you throw the pilochute you have to really throw it because it's not in your hand as with a BOC, there's a length of bridle in between so make sure that pilotchute gets clean air. Which is the one reason I don't jump a pullout, as I wingsuit, where the burble makes a shorter pilotchute throw inadvisable.

Almost all pullouts have their pilotchute reversed from BOC, it's already open when it comes out so it grabs air better. But there's also pullout systems with a "normal" pilotchute... Oh well.

Anyway what the owner did sounds fine to me, as long as everything is hidden under the flaps (no bridle sticking out), usually it'll open just fine I also cover the bridle with the pilotchute on the rare occasions when I pack a pullout, this makes it easier to pack and keep control of the bridle and keep it from sticking out anywhere.

YMMV, but I think this jumper ought to know how to pack his own rig better than a newer jumper who has never seen a pullout before

That was very informative. I now am pretty sure I did the right thing. I will still contact the owner of the rig though, so he can check it out. Just to be on the safe side.

Thank you all for sharing your knowledge!

"In a mad world, only the mad are sane"

[theonlyski 3]

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see a picture. 2008 DOM Micron. see where it says "WONDERHOG" ? Same TSO as the original 1970s Hog.

No picture attached. So why doesn't he still advertise them as a "Wonderhog"?

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just like the original Racer is quite different from the 2K3, so is the original Wonderhog from a Micron, yet they both have been made for a long time.

Point taken.

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and as far as the C9 - well, it was never made for sport use to begin with, and is still unpleasant to land. All I was pointing out is how something having a long market life is not an indication of it being a superior product. Let's think of the T10s which have been actively jumped by the military for decades. I doubt most of the users would say it's a pleasant experience (when compared to other, more modern gear)

But for all that, it still serves the purpose very well for the usage for which it is intended. Otherwise it wouldn't still be in use. "Unpleasant to land" is not necessarily a valid argument against it, when it's designed to be used in the first place only in unpleasant emergency situations. It must be superior to other canopies for bailout purposes, or otherwise the military wouldn't be using them. Aircrew, untrained in ram-air parachutes, may have better odds of injury-free landings with C9 rounds, then ram-airs. And then there's the issue of reliability during high-speed unstable deployments. Sure it lands harder, but for emergency uses, there are other more important criteria that take precedence.

You mentioned T-10's for paratroops - yes, they could get softer landings on ram-airs, but what about all those hundreds of paratroops on mass exits all zinging around the sky in close proximity at 20 mph? The number of canopy collisions would negate any benefit from softer landings. So the T10 lands hard, but it's still the best thing yet for putting large numbers of troops on the ground with the fewest injuries.

Tell that to the Army, they're switching over to the T-11.

"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

[JerryBaumchen 1,046]

Hi John,

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So why doesn't he still advertise them as a "Wonderhog"?

Maybe I can clarify somewhat ( or maybe I can't ).

In a sense he still does 'advertise' them as a Wonderhog because it says that on the TSO label.

As for his ads in magazines, well the FAA does not regulate those. They do however regulate what goes on the TSO label.

Did that help any or did it stir the pot some more?

JerryBaumchen

[billvon 2,379]

>So why doesn't he still advertise them as a "Wonderhog"?

Because a lot of manufacturers like to update their gear. I mean, they're also still called Vectors, but some are also called Microns because they sound small. Jumpshack does this as well. They've had the Racer SST, the Elite, the NOS and the 2000. (Although now the 2000 is really the 2K3 - I guess 2000 is too last-decade now.)

[Bolas 5]

The TSOs on rigs themselves are updated with the rig changes, right? It's just the "official" name that may not change?

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[racerman 0]

The reason the RSL caused a malfunction was because a dumb ass rigger mis-routed it! All the Tandem Master had to do was pull the reserve handle and it would have worked. You know this is true as this thread had a response from Nancy @ JumpShack.

[likestojump 3]

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The reason the RSL caused a malfunction was because a dumb ass rigger mis-routed it! All the Tandem Master had to do was pull the reserve handle and it would have worked. You know this is true as this thread had a response from Nancy @ JumpShack.

the point is that the way the rig is built, it allows someone misrig it in a way to cause such a mal.

No particular brand or model is bulletproof. Uniqueness does not necessarily have any correlation to safety.

[JerryBaumchen 1,046]

Hi Bolas,

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The TSOs on rigs themselves are updated with the rig changes, right?

Not if it is only a Minor Change ( and ALL changes are Minor Changes )

Take a look at the TSO label on a brand new Micron, it says TSO C23b because that was the standard when they received their TSO authorization ( back in '74 IIRC ).

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It's just the "official" name that may not change?

It is possible to make changes ( via the Minor Change route ) to the TSO label. But why????

So, have I confused you even more?

JerryBaumchen

[Bolas 5]

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Hi Bolas,

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The TSOs on rigs themselves are updated with the rig changes, right?

Not if it is only a Minor Change ( and ALL changes are Minor Changes )

Take a look at the TSO label on a brand new Micron, it says TSO C23b because that was the standard when they received their TSO authorization ( back in '74 IIRC ).

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It's just the "official" name that may not change?

It is possible to make changes ( via the Minor Change route ) to the TSO label. But why????

So, have I confused you even more?

JerryBaumchen

No. You confirmed what I suspected of TSO's.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.