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billvon

Worst rig

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Ask your DZ safety guy on how to handle it,,,:P



That was one of the first things I did. Actually, the 'safety guy' really says: "It'll be ok to jump with" to about anything. When I asked other instructors they said: "go ask the guy who jumps it" [:/]
"In a mad world, only the mad are sane"

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What he jumps is up to him; what you pack is up to you. You can ask him why he thinks that's a good system, and listen to the detail. Think about the failure modes for yourself.

But it's still his gear, and it's still up to him if he wants to jump it.

Probably not the best setup, but at one time BOC was new and weird; at one time, throw-out was new and weird. I caught shit once for getting step-through leg straps instead of snaps.

Wendy P.
There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

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When I asked him where the hell I should stow his PC he said "You just stuff it al in the container on top of the D-bag after you've put the D-bag in and stuff the pull-out handle in a small cover on the right side of the rig." I was really surprised! When I saw him put the PC in the container on top of the bag pretty sloppy, I was stunned. Isn't it really easy to get a knot in your PC bridle this way? I actually still worry about when he will make his next jump because I don't understand how in the hell that could be considered a safe rig.



He has a pull out pilot chute, it is a different system to BOC ( which is the pouch you were talking about ).

He may be sloppy, many people are; but Pull out is not an unsafe system, it is considered to be a safer option for freefliers by many. This system makes the likelihood of a horseshoe (the ugliest) malfunction very minimal.

I don;t use pull out but very seriously considered it.
"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

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I don't have enough knowledge or experience to have an opinion on the worst rig, but the worst canopy I ever jumped was an Apache. Absolute piece of shit. Hey, it was cheap and I only had what, 50+ jumps at the time. :S



Built by Bob Chaffin, who my brother and I called Gandpa as kids on the DZ. Stan, my brother was Bob's test jumper at the time of the Apache. I think the only one that was decent was the one Stan jumped. I have a brand new one Billy, 0 jumps, it was made for a Dallas Cowboys Demo jump, sure you don't want to give it a shot? Has the shiny silver fabric that would wear off in time. I mean really, you only had 50 jumps, what the hell did you know? :P I remember when I found it at Chaffin's loft after he passed away: Stan says" "you can jump it, but don't land it". Will hook it up on a cutaway harness sometime.

I think it was a Unit II that I jumped once, took forever to get the end cells open and keep them open. Really wanted to chop but had a round reserve with a 1959 pilot chute, this was in 2004. Won't jump that again.



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I would firstly like to apoligose up front for not beeing exactly on topic. I recently started packing at my home DZ.I actually still worry about when he will make his next jump because I don't understand how in the hell that could be considered a safe rig. I'm thinking of not packing his rig anymore because I am in no way familliar with this kind of setup. Was this setup normal in the earlier days of skydiving?

it's called a Pull-Out and it's as safe as safe can be
scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

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When I asked him where the hell I should stow his PC he said "You just stuff it al in the container on top of the D-bag after you've put the D-bag in and stuff the pull-out handle in a small cover on the right side of the rig." I was really surprised! When I saw him put the PC in the container on top of the bag pretty sloppy, I was stunned. Isn't it really easy to get a knot in your PC bridle this way? I actually still worry about when he will make his next jump because I don't understand how in the hell that could be considered a safe rig.



He has a pull out pilot chute, it is a different system to BOC ( which is the pouch you were talking about ).

He may be sloppy, many people are; but Pull out is not an unsafe system, it is considered to be a safer option for freefliers by many. This system makes the likelihood of a horseshoe (the ugliest) malfunction very minimal.

I don't use pull out but very seriously considered it.



Thanks for the reply's so far!

So putting the D-bag in the container, then trashing all of the bridle and pilot chute on top of it, then closing the container, is still considered safe then?

I will post a pic of his rig when I see him again, but that might take some time since I don't know when I will see him again.
"In a mad world, only the mad are sane"

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Boy -- somehow from his description I didn't take it for a pull-out; not sure why

Wendy P.
There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

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I would firstly like to apoligose up front for not beeing exactly on topic. I recently started packing at my home DZ.I actually still worry about when he will make his next jump because I don't understand how in the hell that could be considered a safe rig. I'm thinking of not packing his rig anymore because I am in no way familliar with this kind of setup. Was this setup normal in the earlier days of skydiving?

it's called a Pull-Out and it's as safe as safe can be



If indeed this is a very safe system then I won't worry about it to much anymore. Still a little bit though, as I am not familliar with the system. It just seems weird to me. I have had many people tell me that you should stow the lines at the bottom of the container carefully and make sure they don't knot up so you don't have a baglock or something, but adding all that bridle and pilot chute to those lines inside the container, and then closing it, just seems weird in my mind. I just keep trying to understand how trashing a bunch of lines, bridle and pilot chute together in one compartment (inside the closed container) could not easlily evolve in a very bad knot/entanglement between your lines/bridle/pilot chute. Glad to learn all this though! And thank you all for your reply's so far!
"In a mad world, only the mad are sane"

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I'm probably not expressing myself clearly, but that is because I have difficulty putting things into words, probably due to my aspergers, and because I have a limited amount of knowledge about gear, especially old gear. I know what a pull-out system is, my teammate uses one (a pouch wich holds the pilot chute outisde and at the bottom of the container, just like a hand deploy, but not with a hackey, but a pull-out (flat cushion that is stowed away under a small pouch that keeps the pull out in place))

I'm not making any sense at all am I? [:/]

"In a mad world, only the mad are sane"

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So putting the D-bag in the container, then trashing all of the bridle and pilot chute on top of it, then closing the container, is still considered safe then?



This system requires the user to open the container before the pilot chute is extracted.

It can defianately be done incorrectly but is still a very good system.

Don't hang on the the pilot chute too long though..B|ouch, or let go before the pin is pulled B|.
"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

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I really think it is not a normal pull-out. the cushion looks the same. But the pilot chute + bridle + lines of your main are all together stuffed in ONE compartment. I thought a pull-out system was basically the same as a pouch at the bottom of the container, only not with a ball/hackey, but a small cushion that can stay firmly into place...

By the way, pull-out is relatively new right? This gear dates back to the early eighties. Did the contemporary pull-out systems we see at almost every DZ today exist back then?
"In a mad world, only the mad are sane"

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I believe someone has mis-explained the difference between pull-out and throw-out to you.

In a throw-out, the pilot chute is external to the container and the pilot chute pulls the pin. Generally these days the pilot chute is in a pouch on the bottom of the container.

In a pull-out, the pilot chute is inside the container (on top of the D-bag), and the pin is pulled by the skydiver. After the pin is pulled, the air takes the pilot chute.

I attached a picture from teh Racer owner's manual showing a pull-out being packed.

Wendy P.
There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

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Some things that usually can help tell the difference between pullout and throw out:

Pull out has a straight closing pin (not curved).

The hacky/handle/PVC for a throw out is at the apex of the PC, and is not *on a pullout.

Didn't have much luck on google finding pics of the pin/pud etc... sorry.

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Don't hang on the the pilot chute too long though..B|ouch, or let go before the pin is pulled B|.



Now that I have more understanding of the two systems (thanks to Wendy/wmw999 and yourself), it doesn't surprise me that the guy has 7 reserve rides on his pull-out system! [:/]
"In a mad world, only the mad are sane"

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I added a picture of pull-out to my previous post.

Wendy P.
There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

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Some things that usually can help tell the difference between pullout and throw out:

Pull out has a straight closing pin (not curved).



Yes, I noticed that it did have a straight and not a curved closing pin!

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The hacky/handle/PVC for a throw out is at the apex of the PC, and is not *on a pullout.



This has ocurred to me as well. If I had mentioned these two points you just made, things would have been more clear earlier on in this thread. My apoligies for that.

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Didn't have much luck on google finding pics of the pin/pud etc... sorry.



No problem dude! Your input is grealty appreciated! :)
"In a mad world, only the mad are sane"

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With a pull out the bridle and pilot chute is in the container with a small bridle going to the handle (pillow) which is stowed in the regular place ( usualy). They usually have a straight pin and the user pulls the pin then throws the pilot cute into the relative wind.

With a BOC the pilot chute pulls the pin, the pull out eliminates a malfunction but adds another...

I wouldn't worry about it if you are not jumping it but you are absolutely correct in asking about something yo are unsure of, especially if you are packing it.


As long as you follow the instructions of the user you are doing your job, but if you are not happy then simply don't pack it.

Only an idiot would make someone pack their rig that does not understand it correctly.

keep the passion and be safe!:)

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

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Thank you, thats the one! After the guy closed the container I opened it up again, because when he put the bridle and pilot chute on top of the D-bag, he just trashed it in there and closed it. I later openend it up again so I could neatly stow away the bridle and pilot chute so the chance of a bridle/pilot chute knot/entanglement would be smaller.
"In a mad world, only the mad are sane"

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The Racer has been manufactured continuously since the 1970's.
It has been popular because it works, and it's comfortable.
What other rig has been in production that long?
None.



Wonderhog has been made since the 70s too.

BTW, the C9 canopies have been made for over 50 years. Doesn't make them any more pleasant to land :(



C9 canopies are not still being jumped by sport skydivers - they're for military emergency situations, and sport emergency bailout rigs.

As for the Wonderhog, I don't believe Booth is still making those, and hasn't in quite some time. Decades. He produces the Vector and Micron now.

I believe my challenge stands: What other rig has been manufactured as long as the Racer?

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I really think it is not a normal pull-out. the cushion looks the same. But the pilot chute + bridle + lines of your main are all together stuffed in ONE compartment. I thought a pull-out system was basically the same as a pouch at the bottom of the container, only not with a ball/hackey, but a small cushion that can stay firmly into place...

By the way, pull-out is relatively new right? This gear dates back to the early eighties. Did the contemporary pull-out systems we see at almost every DZ today exist back then?



I think you're talking about a Free Fly handle here.

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it doesn't surprise me that the guy has 7 reserve rides on his pull-out system! [:/]



You may be jumping to an incorrect conclusion. First of all, how many jumps does he have? 7 reserve rides means nothing by itself - we need to know the ratio of reserve rides to jumps. Second, you are assuming that the malfunctions were caused by the pull-out system, which may have had nothing at all to do with them. You have much to learn, little grasshopper...

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With a BOC the pilot chute pulls the pin, the pull out eliminates a malfunction but adds another...



Wich ones are eliminated and wich ones are added if I may inquire?

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I wouldn't worry about it if you are not jumping it but you are absoluteuly correct in asking about something you are unsure of, especially if you are packing it.



I don't jump it myself (I use throw outu), but I want to know at least the minimum about the gear that I pack, be it my own or that of someone who asks me to pack for them, so they/I will have a good main opening and will not have to pull their/my reserve (Then again shit can alsways happen of course). That is why I always will be asking questions when I have to pack a rig that I am not entirely sure of how to pack.

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As long as you follow the instructions of the user you are doing your job, but if you are not happy then simply don't pack it.



I always do, and when someone comes to me with a rig I really don't feel comfortable packing, then I am very sorry for that person, but I will not touch that gear. Simple as that.

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Only an idiot would make someone pack their rig that does not understand it correctly.

keep the passion and be safe!:)



True. Thank you Rhys and Wendy for making these critical points more clear to me! :)
"In a mad world, only the mad are sane"

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I think you're talking about a Free Fly handle here.



Yea, that makes it a little harder than it used to be. A "pud" for a main used to be a giveaway that they were jumping a pullout, but now the freefly handle throwout systems look very similar but are still throwouts. Mirage has a good pic of that http://www.miragesys.com/products/?loc=detail&id=1&iid=1073

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