Transition to crossbraced - sizing comparison

[base615 77]

Just interested in hearing experiences from those who've moved to crossbraced for the first time and how they selected a size. Having never flown a crossbraced canopy I have no personal experience to call on. I currently jump a Katana 120 loaded at about 1.75 and my next move would be to a crossbraced wing although I'm certainly not looking to change my canopy for a while.

The general progression among others at my DZ on Katanas seems to be KA120 to (Comp) Velo 96 or KA107 to (Comp) Velo 90. Obviously these are equivalents from a pack volume perspective so it might be the only option to fit in people's containers but it seems like a big jump in wing loading to me.

Do others make a smaller jump such as KA120 to a VC103 / VC111 or do those canopies feel comparatively sluggish due to the additional stability inherent in the design?

 

Edited May 19, 2021 by base615

[al05r 2]

I think the only way to really know is to jump those canopies for yourself - choose a day with moderate wind from a good direction for your DZ and ask your buddies if you can borrow their stuff.

For what it's worth, my personal experience: Hurt myself on a canopy collapse on a SA2-97, upsized to a CF2-107 to come back, and then down to a JFX-87 once I was good and current again.

My reason for going crossbraced was I wanted a design that kept more pressure in the wing, rather than to increase performance. So I first borrowed a VE-103 and VE-96 from friends for a few jumps, and then had the opportunity to demo VC-96, VC-90, VC-84 and also JFX-94 and JFX-84 at events. At my wingloading (just over 60kg exit weight), the openings were really uncomfortable on anything larger than a 90 - the 103 was just a shitshow. These things like to be loaded. Since you're already at 1.75 it probably won't be an issue for you - but may be part of the reason for the big jump to 1st crosbraced you see.

I know .. i know .. body position .. fly the opening ... maybe! :) I repeat: this is just my personal experience, not intended as advice for anyone. But if you want to know what these things are like before you buy them.. fly them for yourself That said, be ready, engaged, and conservative on these jumps. People say crossbraced flies "bigger" - in my experience the VE-103 was definitely faster and more agile than my beat up SA2-97..

Edited May 20, 2021 by al05r

[Yopyop64 0]

I moved from a xf3 109 loaded at 1.8 to a jfx 99 loaded at 2. The main change was the harness sensitivity at the opening and the canopy roll. The arc is the same.

We are used of being told that we should keep the same size if we move to crossbraced. The main thing I see is be current, jump a lot and take your time.

As long as you are already used to the katana shitty openings, you will not be that disturbed by the vc ones. The katana was referred to me as a Velo with only the bad things of the Velo. So you should be fine on your velo as long as you keep your green lights.

How many jumps do you have ? On the Katana ? This year ?

 

Edited May 20, 2021 by Yopyop64

[base615 77]

4 hours ago, al05r said:

I think the only way to really know is to jump those canopies for yourself - choose a day with moderate wind from a good direction for your DZ and ask your buddies if you can borrow their stuff.

For what it's worth, my personal experience: Hurt myself on a canopy collapse on a SA2-97, upsized to a CF2-107 to come back, and then down to a JFX-87 once I was good and current again.

My reason for going crossbraced was I wanted a design that kept more pressure in the wing, rather than to increase performance. So I first borrowed a VE-103 and VE-96 from friends for a few jumps, and then had the opportunity to demo VC-96, VC-90, VC-84 and also JFX-94 and JFX-84 at events. At my wingloading (just over 60kg exit weight), the openings were really uncomfortable on anything larger than a 90 - the 103 was just a shitshow. These things like to be loaded. So this might also be a reason for the big jump to 1st crosbraced you see.

I know .. i know .. body position .. fly the opening ... maybe! :) I repeat: this is just my personal experience, not intended as advice for anyone. But if you want to know what these things are like before you buy them.. fly them for yourself That said, be ready, engaged, and conservative on these jumps. People say crossbraced flies "bigger" - in my experience the VE-103 was definitely faster and more agile than my beat up SA2-97..

Cheers mate, that helps. I didn't even consider the opening aspect.

When it comes time for me to do it, I could find my pick of 96s to try. I don't know anyone with anything bigger than that so I'd be struggling to find one round here and, while I could easily get demos from NZA, I'm not sure PD do a demo service in Aus.

I've got an exit weight of about 93kg so a 96 would be about a 2.2 wing loading which seems quite the jump :)

Edited May 20, 2021 by base615

[base615 77]

15 hours ago, Yopyop64 said:

I moved from a xf3 109 loaded at 1.8 to a jfx 99 loaded at 2. The main change was the harness sensitivity at the opening and the canopy roll. The arc is the same.

We are used of being told that we should keep the same size if we move to crossbraced. The main thing I see is be current, jump a lot and take your time.

As long as you are already used to the katana shitty openings, you will not be that disturbed by the vc ones. The katana was referred to me as a Velo with only the bad things of the Velo. So you should be fine on your velo as long as you keep your green lights.

How many jumps do you have ? On the Katana ? This year ?

 

Cheers mate. Around 1300 jumps total. 130 so far this year and about 60 so far on the Katana. Planning on putting a good 300 more on the Katana before doing this but was thinking of buying a new one and obviously there’s quite a waiting list so if I go that way I’d probably look to buy one towards the end of the year with a view to getting it around the middle of the year.

[Squeak 17]

2 hours ago, base615 said:

Cheers mate. Around 1300 jumps total. 130 so far this year and about 60 so far on the Katana. Planning on putting a good 300 more on the Katana before doing this but was thinking of buying a new one and obviously there’s quite a waiting list so if I go that way I’d probably look to buy one towards the end of the year with a view to getting it around the middle of the year.

Where you jumping at mate?   There's a few PD flying HP pilots here in OZ, put the word out and see if you can get to demo some.

[base615 77]

3 hours ago, Squeak said:

Where you jumping at mate?   There's a few PD flying HP pilots here in OZ, put the word out and see if you can get to demo some.

Hey man, I'm at Picton.

Yeah, I'll give that a shot once I'm ready. Everyone here I know is on a 96 or smaller. I know one guy in Coffs on a 111 btu haven't seen any 103s about.

[Squeak 17]

On 5/21/2021 at 11:48 AM, base615 said:

Hey man, I'm at Picton.

Yeah, I'll give that a shot once I'm ready. Everyone here I know is on a 96 or smaller. I know one guy in Coffs on a 111 btu haven't seen any 103s about.

Ask Disco or the Focus boys if they know of anyone that might help.

[Travman 6]

I went from a Katana 107 to a JFX94.  That transition felt OK for me, but it was a VERY steep learning curve.  Luckily I had some teammates who were very skilled pilots and were able to give me some good tips. 

[28337 2]

went from Odyssey-120\1.75 to Velo103\2.0. First jumps was scary as fck. Went to VC96 100 jumps later.

[base615 77]

Sounds like the 103 might be the go when I feel ready. Might have to borrow a container as my KA120 is already pretty tight.

[rjklein4470 23]

Demo a VK 96 IMO.  If you are a confident flyer with good jump numbers you will be fine.  You will see the performance difference but, you will see the wing come alive at 2.5 wl

[28337 2]

On 6/14/2021 at 12:08 AM, rjklein4470 said:

Demo a VK 96 IMO.  If you are a confident flyer with good jump numbers you will be fine.  You will see the performance difference but, you will see the wing come alive at 2.5 wl

moving from [email protected] to [email protected] is too huge step IMO. As I said  - [email protected] is smarter choice as a FIRST xbraced wing.

But [email protected] is good as hell, that's true :) 

[Wirzael 0]

I went from a Katana 107 to a JFX 84. If you have been doing loads of 270° turns on the Katana, landed it in all wind conditions it's not as big of a step as it sounds. The crossbraced conopies can fly bigger if you want them to and it helps if you already know what it looks like if you're coming to low. 

But that is just my personal opinion and it might be differently for you. Whatever path you chose. Invest some money in canopy coaching and do hop&pops to get a better understanding/feeling of what you're doing.

[nwt 131]

10 hours ago, Wirzael said:

The crossbraced conopies can fly bigger if you want them to

What do you mean by this?

[base615 77]

Update on this one for anyone looking for similar answers in the future.

I did go straight to the 96 in the end BUT I had lost 7.5kg (16.5lb) in weight and was wearing a weight belt with 7kg to bring me back to about 1.8 wing loading on my Katana. Without the weight belt on the 96 I load it at around 2.1 and it didn’t feel like too outrageous a step out of the gates. I can’t be sure, but doing the same downsize without the ability to instantly shed 7kg might be a fair bit more hectic.