Darwin award candidate...brain switched off...

[radical_flyer 0]

Hajo

Pull-Up cords around a PC-Handle

What's the issue with that?

[tkhayes 124]

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I agree that it would be good if people noticed, but they're not obliged to. Everyone has to be responsible for themselves first and foremost.

Which, when paraphrased is exactly what I said.

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It's not like at a DZ ...

No it's not, but if you are a BASE jumper on a bridge with a bunch of other BASE jumpers all doing the same thing, then there is no reason that YOU personally cannot treat it like it IS a DZ.

And if everyone else had that ingrained...

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I always cast an eye over other people's gear while I'm standing around doing nothing - but not when I'm about to jump.

good for you and that is what I am talking about. Gear checks are "Skydiving 101" fer chrissake. This is not something new. This is part of the program from the first jump anyone every made. We are taught how to do them, when to do them and how important they are regardless of your experience level. They are supposed to be ritual and as important as 'not forgetting to pull'.

To bypass that now just because BASE is somehow 'different', or the location is different or the circumstances are different is irresponsible.

apparently not. So many facets of our sport still have a lot of growing up to do.

[Hajo 0]

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What's the issue with that?

Some guys wrap a Pull-Up cord around the fabric at the PC-Handle to make the stuffing into the BOC more easy.

Not that bad if you remove the cord after you put the PC into the pouch ..
fatal if you don´t remove it, because if you pitch, the PC cannot inflate ...
(Example: BFL 105 Joe Lathrop, Twin Falls Idaho)

--------------------------------------------------

With sufficient thrust,
pigs just fly well

[jakee 1,254]

tkhayes

What you are saying basically is that it is ok for me to stand there and watch the guy g off a cliff, not my job.

No empathy for fellow human being, accepting death as an ok outcome, disinterested in others, only responsible for myself.

Dude, I don't know what kind of axe you have to grind against the base scene in general or maybe Douggs in particular but this is absolute nonsense. No-one has said anything of the sort and neither does it reflect what happened in the video.

All that has been pointed out is that a bridge is not a dropzone, and Douggs is not responsible for or in control of the bridge in the same way that you are responsible for and in control of your flight line, your airplanes and your landing areas. The same standards, responsibilities and expectations do not apply.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[jumpsalot-2 2]

A roll over .... McConkey .... is an advanced exit. It was not this guy's first day I imagine. I have seen so many jumpers walk onto the Perrine without their legs strap tightened, or even off. They finish gearing up at the exit point. That drives me crazy. I am ready before I walk onto the bridge. Maybe because I am not an expert.

Life is short ... jump often.

[tkhayes 124]

I have no axe to grind with anyone and if read my posts, I said as much and then further clarified my position when so many decided to jump all over my shit.

Let me be clear. i actually give a fuck about human life. I find it unacceptable when people die for stupid reasons. And I think we can all to better. And then I actually take actions to make things better when I see that it can make a difference to further those goals.

In this case, a lot of people could have done better.

If you want to jump on my shit because I give a fuck about human life - even the 'darwin award winners', well then explain to me how I am the one with a problem.....

[obelixtim 100]

tkhayes

I have no axe to grind with anyone and if read my posts, I said as much and then further clarified my position when so many decided to jump all over my shit.

Let me be clear. i actually give a fuck about human life. I find it unacceptable when people die for stupid reasons. And I think we can all to better. And then I actually take actions to make things better when I see that it can make a difference to further those goals.

In this case, a lot of people could have done better.

If you want to jump on my shit because I give a fuck about human life - even the 'darwin award winners', well then explain to me how I am the one with a problem.....

That is all fine. Not sure why you are getting your knickers twisted though.

The impression coming across from your posts, is that while you care about human life, no one else does.

Which is clearly not the case.

Dougg saved an idiot from certain death.

In such an unstructured situation, where he and others were clearly busy, I think he did pretty good job caring for that guy..

For that he deserves a pat on the back. (and a case of beer)

I'm sure the lesson he takes will be to keep a very close eye on anyone who just shows up unannounced in the future.

My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

[jakee 1,254]

tkhayes

i actually give a fuck about human life.

And you're being a total fucking arsehole about it by making out that anyone else here doesn't, or that the guy who actually saved the idiot's life doesn't either.

You're also judging the situation by a completely irrelevant set of standards by saying that a person who just happens to be in the same place as another person has the same duty of care and the same moral responsibility towards that person as you do to the customers who pay you money and enter into contracts with you for the supply of your services.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[weaverd 0]

tkhayes

I have no axe to grind with anyone and if read my posts, I said as much and then further clarified my position when so many decided to jump all over my shit.

Let me be clear. i actually give a fuck about human life. I find it unacceptable when people die for stupid reasons. And I think we can all to better. And then I actually take actions to make things better when I see that it can make a difference to further those goals.

In this case, a lot of people could have done better.

If you want to jump on my shit because I give a fuck about human life - even the 'darwin award winners', well then explain to me how I am the one with a problem.....

Wheres the like button ?

[obelixtim 100]

Just like to point out my intention in posting this video was to see if there were lessons to be learned from this, NOT to start a shit fight that detracts from that...

Base jumping is unregulated, skydiving is not. Different beasts from that POV. Some things are common to both.

And even though skydiving is much easier to control, and you can have the best safety systems in the world, you can't legislate against stupidity.

And skydiving has seen plenty of that.

My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

[hjumper33 0]

Youd make a great tort lawyer! Man places own penis in sausage grinder and turns crank, but who is really to blame?

No one is jumping on your shit about caring about a human life, theyre laughing at you because youve taken the most skydiver possible approach to someone being a complete numpty and almost killing themselves. Where was the S&TA on the bridge? Why was someone not holding this grown adults hand and making sure he wasnt a total jackass? BASE is a completely unregulated sport, and people do occasionally get into it who absolutely should not, and they usually dont stay in it long.

PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY. Not required to skydive, definitely needed to survive base jumping.

But then again, why am I arguing with a skydiver on a skydiving website about base jumping. I might need an adult to accompany me too!

[tkhayes 124]

So I am confused..... I am an arsehole ....does that mean you are ok with the message but you just don't like the way I delivered it? Well sorry you are butt hurt. Lives are at stake.

And I never applied any particular standard, dropzone or skydiver... I was applying a 'higher' standard, using known examples that we are supposedly familiar with...one that say, includes gear checks.

I will tell you what, pretend for a minute that the Darwin candidate was your brother, friend, father, whatever, and they jumped and died....
I expect you would be having similar observations and questions.

And I am certain your response would not be, " oh well, what a dick, well, personal responsibility, y'know..."

[Hajo 0]

tkhayes

...

I will tell you what, pretend for a minute that the Darwin candidate was your ... father, ....., and jumped and died....

Following the Darwin Award Rules, that is not possible, except he adopted his children...(violating Rule 1)
Rules:
Inability to reproduce: Nominee must be dead or rendered sterile
Excellence: Astoundingly stupid judgement
Self-selection:Cause of one's own demise
Maturity: Capable of judgement
Veracity: The event must be verified.

Back to the topic, everyone makes mistakes, more or less with serious outcome.

--------------------------------------------------

With sufficient thrust,
pigs just fly well

[obelixtim 100]

It is all very well to talk about a "higher" standard, like gear checks, and it is relatively easy to mandate these things in a DZ situation where you have a lot of control over what is going on.

It is rather more difficult to do so in an uncontrolled environment when there is no way to sanction anyone who doesn't want to comply, or even listen to advice. How would you deal with that?

There are no rules, requirements, licences, ratings or experience levels mandated to allow someone to jump off a bridge, or control people who do.

Anyone can do it.

Is that difficult to understand?

Even in skydiving there are plenty of people who challenge accepted best practice....pencil packing, jump number faking, wing loading, hook turners and the current Tandem controversy as a few examples.....and as a DZO, its tricky trying to keep on top of all that, as you would know.

It is almost impossible to cover all bases 100%, even in a controlled DZ environment.

In this case, I'm sure Dougg did have an organised safety system in place to cater for the people he was helping. You could see him doing exactly that with several people he was helping in the video. And he was rightly focussed on them. He doesn't have eyes in the back of his head.

Then along comes Bozo who shows up and climbs over the rail without asking or telling anyone what he was up to. Its obvious Dougg didn't even know him, and he wasn't part of Douggs group.

That is all people on here are saying. He was very lucky Dougg was on to it enough to catch him before he jumped.

An analogy would be a random plane overflying your DZ, someone jumping from it, unannounced, and bouncing.

Would that be your responsibility or fault? Would you accept that?

I think not.

My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

[jakee 1,254]

tkhayes

So I am confused..... I am an arsehole ....does that mean you are ok with the message but you just don't like the way I delivered it?

Why are you confused? I'm being pretty clear, to be honest. I'm ok with the message that you give a shit about human life. The rest of it is bullshit.

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And I never applied any particular standard, dropzone or skydiver...

Then you agree that the stuff you said about things reflecting badly on a dropzone, or what you would do if it happened at your dropzone was irrelevant and does not apply?

Look, it's pretty obvious what's happened - you charged into the thread like a bull in a china shop under the missaprehension that Douggs was "in charge of, or at least participating in, what looks like at least some semi-organized thing going on involving many people" that the idiot was part of. But he wasn't. The idiot ha no connection with what Douggs was doing, and was not using, paying for or registered with anyone's goods or services. He just rocked up on his own and was jumping on his own. And now you're too proud to admit your mistake and you're ignoring the reality of the situation. You're basing your criticisms and your dropzone comparisons on the idea that "someone in charge" should have given him a gear check... when as far as the idiot was concerned there was no-one in charge.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[tkhayes 124]

that's fucking funny...I did nto there were 'rules' for Darwin....i thought you just had to be dead to be nominated....

[Hajo 0]

for rainy days and if in doubt of belonging to a higher species:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darwin_Awards#History

reading the "list" is worth a minute ..
http://darwinawards.com/slush/new/

in comparison to that, the guy on the bridge was a clever one ...

--------------------------------------------------

With sufficient thrust,
pigs just fly well

[obelixtim 100]

Well this thread has now turned to shit seeing the mods are wielding their blunt axe.

Lets just forget it shall we.

My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

[tkhayes 124]

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It is rather more difficult to do so in an uncontrolled environment when there is no way to sanction anyone who doesn't want to comply, or even listen to advice. How would you deal with that?

which is exactly what I said - BASE obviously has a long way to go.

we are actually in agreement here. I said we can do better. You are saying we can do better.

I am not asking for 100%, but the record of BASE fatalities is not actually exemplary. It is improving, however it has a long way to go, and it is far more dangerous that 'regular' skydiving. One of those reasons is the lack of these standards, like gear checks. Where is the BASE SIM Manual anyway? Pretty sure there is not one. yet BASE has been around and popular since the 70's.

At least the manufacturers are doing their bit page 46-47 - http://www.baserigs.com/docs/education/Manuals/combined_manual3.pdf

I am being criticized for comparing it to skydiving..... really? OK, then then compare it to aerobatic flying in high performance airplanes. They do gear checks. Compare it to re-breather scuba....because they do gear checks. compare it to whatever extreme sport you want that involves equipment....because they all do gear checks.

And we do gear checks, and we have been doing it for 50+ years now. We are dying for the same reasons we died 30-40 years ago. And sometimes we invent creative new ways to die.

I am not accepting this as a standard.

[obelixtim 100]

Do you think that Douggs did no gear checks on the jumpers he was helping?

And the analogy I posited about an unauthorised jump on your DZ.

How would you react to that if someone criticized you?

My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

[jakee 1,254]

The problem is that you waded into this thread under the misapprehension that Douggs was somehow in charge of the bridge, or in charge of what the idiot was doing with himself, when he wasn't. He had no connection to him whatsoever. Now you're too proud to admit you were wrong and you're just digging deeper and deeper into this irrelevant hole.

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It is improving, however it has a long way to go, and it is far more dangerous that 'regular' skydiving. One of those reasons is the lack of these standards, like gear checks.

Gear failure or misuse accounts for a very, very small proportion of BASE fatalities. And no-one is in charge who can enforce gear checks for those who don't want them or don't want to give them.

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Where is the BASE SIM Manual anyway? Pretty sure there is not one. yet BASE has been around and popular since the 70's.

Because there's no-one in charge who can write one, and no organisation who could insist that its members follow any procedures that might be laid out in said manual.

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OK, then then compare it to aerobatic flying in high performance airplanes. They do gear checks.

Sure. And much of what they do is mandated by the FAA, manufacturers and airfields. Who can mandate it because they are in charge.

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Compare it to re-breather scuba....because they do gear checks.

And much if not most re-breather scuba is carried out under the auspices of commercial operators who are in turn accredited by international organisations. These operators and organisations can insist on rigorous, structured gear checks because..... they are in charge.

Seeing a pattern developing here yet?

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And we do gear checks, and we have been doing it for 50+ years now.

And most people in BASE check their gear as well. But there are also those who don't, just like there are those who don't in every other sport you just mentioned, despite the fact that they are told to by people who have authority over them!

So when someone rocks up, on their own, to a public bridge that no-one controls, to do a jump that he hasn't paid anyone for, it is absolutely no-one elses fault that he hasn't put his gear on properly. And it is especially not the fault of the guy (who has no cennection to him in any way) who spots it and saves his life for him.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[pchapman 261]

tkhayes

And we do gear checks, and we have been doing it for 50+ years now. [...]

I am not accepting this as a standard.

So, does that mean Skydive City is now enforcing British nanny state gear checks before boarding?

Or would you like to be sued because some dumbass skydiver doesn't check his gear properly before exit, something happens, and the family sues because it is now understood that in skydiving, the DZ is responsible for ensuring compliance with gear check rules?

Hasn't anyone ever climbed into one of the airplanes you control (or stepped out of one) while having forgotten something really basic yet important?

Jeez TK let it go. Everyone in BASE knows gear checks should be done, even if there isn't a controlling organization to put it in a manual. And I think everyone is aware of some the freedom vs. standards issues that exist both in skydiving and BASE, and can never be solved to everyone's satisfaction.

[Hajo 0]

tkhayes

..... One of those reasons is the lack of these standards, like gear checks. Where is the BASE SIM Manual anyway? Pretty sure there is not one.

pretty missed .. we (the germans) have one...
we needed it to legalize BASE in Germany..

gear checks are a part of every FJC and common standard everywhere..

you see more than 25.000 jumps a year in switzerland without a legstrap-issue..
mainly because of gearchecks and common sense.
and there are rules and regulations around the world.. depends where you are ...

when it now comes to fatalities, the major point is not a missing gearcheck which had possibly prevented that.
the reason nowadays differ from the reasons why BASEr died 30 - 40 years ago.
we still have wallstrikes or no-pulls, but in 306 fatalities you have only about 10 gear related.

on the other hand you have 127 wingsuit fatalities....

I´m totally with you that BASE still has a long way to go, but (to close the loop to that darwin guy) even in an unregulated enviroment the person itself has to get smarter.

unfortunately it seems that the part between the ears of some jumpers cannot catchup with the speed of their internet connection ...

--------------------------------------------------

With sufficient thrust,
pigs just fly well

[hjumper33 0]

***

which is exactly what I said - BASE obviously has a long way to go.

I am not asking for 100%, but the record of BASE fatalities is not actually exemplary. It is improving, however it has a long way to go, and it is far more dangerous that 'regular' skydiving.

At least the manufacturers are doing their bit page 46-47 - http://www.baserigs.com/docs/education/Manuals/combined_manual3.pdf

I am being criticized for comparing it to skydiving..... really? OK, then then compare it to aerobatic flying in high performance airplanes. They do gear checks. Compare it to re-breather scuba....because they do gear checks. compare it to whatever extreme sport you want that involves equipment....because they all do gear checks.
***


Just to reinforce that you have no idea what youre talking about, this is actually the worse fatality year for base jumping in history, even with 4 months to go, so "its improving" might be an overstatement. You also referenced a manual published 10 years ago from a (not quite but almost) defunct base manufacturer.

Many people enjoy base for its lack of governing body and rule self-inforcement. All the examples you gave are strictly regulated b government agencies, private business, or both.

Youre out of your element Donny. Stick to the USPA ;)

[radical_flyer 0]

pchapman

Hasn't anyone ever climbed into one of the airplanes you control (or stepped out of one) while having forgotten something really basic yet important?

I'm sure everyone's seen that video of the guy failing to route his chest strap properly in freefall before his AAD fires when still on his back and somehow manages to stay in the harness. The CI at my home DZ has a story about a jumper in the US somewhere who exited without leg straps on. Someone was able to communicate this to him in freefall and he went on his back and did them up. Fortunately for him this was back in the days of B12 snaps. After reviewing that video again of the former incident you wouldn't have a chance with friction adapters.