CSpenceFLY 1 #51 September 7, 2016 tkhayesfair enough.... But when someone gets on the airplane at the dropzone without their gear on, or worse, climbs out of the airplane without their gear on....it does in fact reflect badly on the dropzone as well as the person who failed to do their gear up. And as an example at Skydive City, we would absolutely take action to ensure that thing did not happen again. Because it has happened, Keep in mind I never said it was your fault. i commented on what I saw in 1 minute of video. Lots of people doing things that are dangerous at best, yet apparently complacent all the same. Hopefully you learned something from it as well. The next time there is an injury or death in Z-Hills we will all expect you to step up to the plate, accept responsibility and resign. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tkhayes 124 #52 September 7, 2016 I never asked anyone to resign, and if you are suggesting that skydive City does not analyze fatalities and injuries and address or make changes to processes to help reduce that, you would be woefully mistaken Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
obelixtim 100 #53 September 7, 2016 tkhayesI never asked anyone to resign, and if you are suggesting that skydive City does not analyze fatalities and injuries and address or make changes to processes to help reduce that, you would be woefully mistaken I think you miss his point. Ever heard the expression "holier than thou"? Or "casting stones". Stay cool man......My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tkhayes 124 #54 September 7, 2016 Which applies to pretty much every post in this thread..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
obelixtim 100 #55 September 7, 2016 tkhayesWhich applies to pretty much every post in this thread..... If you say so....... But, on another note: Quote An analogy would be a random plane overflying your DZ, someone jumping from it, unannounced, and bouncing. Would that be your responsibility or fault? Would you accept that? I think not. A quote from one of my earlier posts. I thought you might respond....disappointed you didn't, but maybe you missed it. Did I answer it correctly?My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyBoyd 0 #56 September 7, 2016 skydiverek***well, it would seem from the audio that the guy chewing him out is 'in charge' of what is going on... "Go home, Get off this fucking bridge..." etc So if you are in charge of, or at least participating in, what looks like at least some semi-organized thing going on involving many people....how it is that this guy managed to get over the railing without someone else (perhaps someone in charge) giving him a gear check on a base jump? Appears there were many 'brain dead' people there that day, not just that guy. From the guy "in charge": Chris "Douggs" McDougall 12 hrs · Just for the record...... This muppet with no leg straps on was NOT one of my students!! I was looking after ten other people perfectly fine and this dick he'd just showed up!! He was one second away from jumping when I caught the mistake. He was NOT one of my students. On headings for me tomorrow. I will release my video angle when I get a chance!! ❤️ triple check your gear everyone!! 💥 I don't know anyone involved in this, and I'm not a base jumper. I'd just like to say my hat's off to Chris for saving a life here. As to the negative the stuff in this thread, it's best to just ignore it. It's just toxic garbage. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CSpenceFLY 1 #57 September 8, 2016 tkhayesI never asked anyone to resign, and if you are suggesting that skydive City does not analyze fatalities and injuries and address or make changes to processes to help reduce that, you would be woefully mistaken No you didn't ask anyone to resign. You did however suggest that someone take responsibility for a grown ass man for which he had no authority over or any connection to other than standing on the same bridge. That being the case, I say YOU are responsible for everything that happens at Z-Hills. As a matter of fact, I would expect that no one should ever be injured around you again, ever, anywhere, because you should personally be able to save everyone who is at minimum within visual range. Because you are your brothers keeper. So get busy and start looking out for the J-walkers and the gang banggers. I'm counting on you to save the world. Or is there a limit to where your personal responsibility ends and someone elses begins? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nolhtairt 0 #58 September 8, 2016 CSpenceFLY ***I never asked anyone to resign, and if you are suggesting that skydive City does not analyze fatalities and injuries and address or make changes to processes to help reduce that, you would be woefully mistaken No you didn't ask anyone to resign. You did however suggest that someone take responsibility for a grown ass man for which he had no authority over or any connection to other than standing on the same bridge. That being the case, I say YOU are responsible for everything that happens at Z-Hills. As a matter of fact, I would expect that no one should ever be injured around you again, ever, anywhere, because you should personally be able to save everyone who is at minimum within visual range. Because you are your brothers keeper. So get busy and start looking out for the J-walkers and the gang banggers. I'm counting on you to save the world. Or is there a limit to where your personal responsibility ends and someone elses begins? Isn't that what signing waivers are for? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tkhayes 124 #59 September 8, 2016 QuoteNo you didn't ask anyone to resign. You did however suggest that someone everyone take some responsibility for a grown ass man for which he had no authority over or any connection to other than standing on the same bridge. That being the case, I say YOU are responsible for everything that happens at Z-Hills. (I am in fact responsible for everything that happens at Z-Hills in some way. You have a problem with that? Because I do not....) fixed that for you. QuoteAs a matter of fact, I would expect that no one should ever be injured around you again, ever, anywhere, because you should personally be able to save everyone who is at minimum within visual range. Because you are your brothers keeper. So get busy and start looking out for the J-walkers and the gang banggers. I'm counting on you to save the world. Or is there a limit to where your personal responsibility ends and someone elses begins? nice rant, but truly meaningless and apparently you failed to read all of my comments. It's OK, we all make mistakes.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Halfpastniner 0 #60 September 8, 2016 Yo TK, I didn't see you answer the question posed to you multiple times above, you mind sharing your thoughts on that one? QuoteAn analogy would be a random plane overflying your DZ, someone jumping from it, unannounced, and bouncing. Would that be your responsibility or fault? Would you accept that? For the number of posts you have in this thread, you seem to keep skipping over that one.BASE 1384 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tkhayes 124 #61 September 9, 2016 I do not remember being under any requirement to answer anyone's questions. This is not a legal forum, but is a discussion forum. I can choose to state an opinion or not, and I can choose to read, accept, ignore, or not read yours or anyone else's. But since you are pressing, the analogy is false. Moot. This is not what happened. We are talking about a bunch of people on the same bridge at the same location at the same time, within a few feet of each other. Not someone driving over the bridge and then jumping out of a car, off the bridge, unannounced. apples and oranges, hence why i did not answer it. to correct your analogy: QuoteAn analogy would be a random plane overflying landing and picking up jumpers your DZ, someone jumping from it, unannounced, and bouncing. Would that be your responsibility or fault? Would you accept that? And yes, I would most certainly bear 'some' responsibility for that. And I would review, alter, change, implement procedures to alleviate that situation if it ever occurred. It would not be 'my' fault. It would be 'my' responsibility in some way, as well as the responsibility of others as well. It would be a gross failure of multiple chains of events that lead to an accident, just like every accident is. That chain of events would need to be analyzed, the events that lead up to the accident detailed, decisions made whether or not any of these events could be altered and how, and then actions taken to change the sequence of events in the future, if at all possible. A great read on accident analysis http://sunnyday.mit.edu/accidents/soho.doc not to mention the wealth of knowledge that is available already on this website, plus USPA, plus Bryan Burke, plus dozens of others. If we are still dying by the same methods that we were dying from yesterday, then there is obviously some work we can do to improve things. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pchapman 261 #62 September 9, 2016 tkhayes QuoteAn analogy would be a random plane overflying landing and picking up jumpers your DZ, someone jumping from it, unannounced, and bouncing. Would that be your responsibility or fault? Would you accept that? And yes, I would most certainly bear 'some' responsibility for that. So everything needs to have a 'boss'? I thought I was out of this silly back and forth but this irked me enough to jump back in. Just because Douggs is experienced he is supposed to control the bridge? Set up checkpoints, gear inspections? Under what authority? (I haven't jumped the potato bridge so I'm not actually sure of procedures) If I'm hiking a trail along a cliff edge, and someone I don't know walks off the edge nearby, how would I be responsible? Or am I suddenly responsible if I happen to be the most experienced hiker within 50m? And are you also boss of your airport? Didn't know you controlled the airspace and all ground surfaces. I thought anyone could fly in to an untowered public use airport like Zephyrhills and pick up passengers. And how would you be responsible if they then passed over the airport up high and dropped a jumper? You might not like it, or there might be an FAA procedures violation (I'm not sure about US rules on notification of jumps), or you might want to improve things in the future, but would you actually be responsible? Anyway, Douggs happened to get lucky in that he was looking the right way at the right time, noticed something bad about to happen to someone he had no relationship with, and stopped it. Yay! That's basically it. Then you go smearing 'responsibility' around... Yeah, nobody wants bad stuff to happen. But your attitude smacks of someone in charge of things who is used to having some responsibilty and is getting used to controlling things. And sure, your job involves a lot of that. You don't get to be as carefree as us plain skydivers. But that doesn't mean that everything needs to be controlled and regulated, especially when well established rules and procedures already take care of things at an acceptable cost. Or else we'd all have to hire a more experienced jump buddy to keep an eye on us every day we skydive or BASE... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tkhayes 124 #63 September 9, 2016 I never said everything has to have a boss, and the rest of your post appears to be based upon that assumption. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,254 #64 September 10, 2016 tkhayesI never said everything has to have a boss, and the rest of your post appears to be based upon that assumption. Just as everything you have written started with the incorrect assumption that Douggs was in charge of an organised event involving the idiot.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tkhayes 124 #65 September 11, 2016 And after I was corrected on that assumption, I further clarified and corrected my statement. You missed that apparently. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tikl68 6 #66 September 11, 2016 No clarification, only avoidance and side stepping. The correct response would be "My bad I assumed he was one of of douggs' students. Good job douggs" period. Instead there were many excuses and statements made that dont apply to the situation. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yeyo 1 #67 September 12, 2016 Hey TK! Apparently what you think is very important to the universe! This guys cant sleep if they have a different opinion HISPA #93 DS #419.5 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CrashProne 4 #68 September 12, 2016 Make clicky please... https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=k-Idkhud5hY https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=k-Idkhud5hY Ooh, ooh, I think I got it! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Di0 1 #69 September 12, 2016 Dougg was running a course and he had ~10 students he was taking care of. Those were his responsibility, granted in base jumping anyone is responsibly for himself, but those are the people he was looking after. Random guy shows up, gears up in a hurry and tries to sneak a jump in between, how is Doug responsibility to gear check him? He could have asked Doug, he'd probably been happy to help, but Doug is not the owner, the manager or even a "special figure" on the bridge. He's there to teach and help HIS students, stop. He's not there to be a jumpmaster or a "load organizer", his only authority comes from his experience and the respect he earned, but if this idiot doesn't acknowledge those, then there is nothing anyone can do for him. It would be like a guy that boards the plane on a now-call, after everybody is already in, forgets to put his legstraps on, and then blaming it on the most experienced AFF-Is sitting in the back of the plane and giving 100% of their focus to their first-time student. And alike a "regular" DZ where an ST&A or a DZO can rightfully stop a jumper from getting in a plane for many reasons, which can go from "you are unsafe to jump" to "I don't like your face", since they own and operate it, there is nothing that can be done on a bridge, short of hogtying a guy. TL;DR: This mishap is 100% the guy's fault, no one else is to blame but him.I'm standing on the edge With a vision in my head My body screams release me My dreams they must be fed... You're in flight. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CSpenceFLY 1 #70 September 16, 2016 tikl68No clarification, only avoidance and side stepping. The correct response would be "My bad I assumed he was one of of douggs' students. Good job douggs" period. Instead there were many excuses and statements made that dont apply to the situation. This is regular TK Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EnricoPalazzo 1 #71 September 26, 2016 Disclaimer: I'm not a basejumper, so I don't know what's customary in that sport. But an important difference to TK's scenario is: In skydiving, it's very clear cut if you're on a jump or not. Anyone boarding a plane without legstraps should of course be stopped by whoever is responsible for safety that day or by any other jumper. Anyone walking around at the DZ with a rig on but no legstraps: hell, why not? He's not boarding at this time. On a bridge jump, there is no plane, no boarding, no ride to altitude, no red line reading "rigs on after this point", so at which point do you start yelling at people, especially if they are not part of your group but a random jumper you've never seen before? I'd say: at the point where said jumper starts climbing over the rail and obviously readies himself for jumping, which is what Douggs did. So hats off for spotting this while being busy watching his own guys! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
