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baronn

Pilot rigs on pilots

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I disagree with you.
As Dirty Harry (played by Clint Eastwood) said: "A man has got to know his limitations."
Any young rigger - who refuses to repack round canopies - is merely stating the limitations of his training.
Consider that most young riggers started rigging after (1990) round mains disappeared from North American DZs. Round reserves retiredk a decade later after instructors tired of teaching students about two vastly different canopies (square main and round reserve) knowing that most students would forget advice on how to land round reserves before they boarded the airplane.

My experience is different than most young riggers because I started jumping while round mains were still fashionable for dropping students. Three military courses brought my total of round jumps up to 70. I also packed a thousand rounds into PEPs while working for Butler and Softie.

But even I will not repack Phantoms anymore. First, because I lost count of how many Service Bulletins were issued about Phantom defects and secondly because the National factory says not to pack any of their gear more than 15 years old. Phantoms fell out of production more than 20 years ago.

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I wonder what percentage of people that repack rounds have a table, and how many of these tables are actually at least 3ft wide and at least 40ft long.



Well, if you are packing rounds without a table, I would say 99% have a table of the ones that I know. You would be the 1%.

My table is 36" X 36" X 46' long. I need the extra length for the ejection seats.


MEL
Skyworks Parachute Service, LLC
www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com

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baronn

... simply wants to doubt someone else's facts. ...



Peter, I'm sorry, but your "facts" are very much in doubt. "DBCOOPER" is asking you to verify where you got the information about the "STC" you mention. I am now doing so too.

It is entirely possible that you found an error somewhere on the FAA web site. Show us where you got your information and we can determine whether it is actually a mistake. (I have found such mistakes and have told the FAA about them, and they responded to my corrections.)

Dropzone.com forums need technical accuracy. Skydiving and skydiving aircraft are both very technical. Inaccuracies add a great deal of confusion.

By the way, your profile STILL lists a D license number that belongs to "Rebecca L. Brocato" even though I think I told you about this years ago. See what I mean about accuracy?

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masterrigger1

Quote


I wonder what percentage of people that repack rounds have a table, and how many of these tables are actually at least 3ft wide and at least 40ft long.



Well, if you are packing rounds without a table, I would say 99% have a table of the ones that I know. You would be the 1%.

My table is 36" X 36" X 46' long. I need the extra length for the ejection seats.
my table is about 32 ft long, with a 4 ft extension (approx). The table just fits inside my 12m/40ft container/loft.

I need the extension for a couple of my seat rigs (IIRC with C-9's inside).

When I started my rigger training at USAPR, I thought I wouldn't need "round" skills. Actually, approximately 65% of my work is rounds :D
scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

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Consider that many younger riggers have never seen a round canopy in the air, because round mains disappeared from American DZs 25-ish years ago. Round reserves lingered longer, but by the early 1990s, major dealers (like Square One) stopped selling round reserves to skydivers.

Now consider: if a pilot buys a PEP containing a round canopy now, how many round riggers will still be packing when that PEP approaches the end of its service life 20 years in the future?

That is why I recommend PEPs containing large (e.g. 250 square feet) square reserves to aerobatic pilots.

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likestojump

*********The biggest problem is getting a round packed but I've been lucky so far..



Did you seriously have a rigger refuse to pack a round PEP with a round ???

Remember, many new riggers for the last few years have no training on round parachutes. Dave DeWolf does not include training or testing on round parachutes and PEP's in his basic rigger course. For that training you have to stay longer and spend more money. On the other hand my FAA Supervising Inspector REQUIRES me to test senior rigger candidates on round AND ram air parachutes.

And even if they know how to pack they many don't have the equipment and facilities to pack round parachutes and don't want to mess with them.

The problem is with the ones that don't know how but still pack them.:S

On the other hand there still should be a lot of old farts around the midwest. About all I pack are pilot rigs with rounds. He may not have tried very hard.;)

I ain't no old fart, but but have plenty of round packjobs. It ain't nuclear rocket surgery, and freepacking a round into a bailout is easier than bagging a square. And I don't think you need much more than the floorspace to stretch the canopy out.

Basically, my opinion is that if a rigger refuses to pack a back bailout rig, I would be cautious of how knowledgeable and competent they are.

This is getting weird.

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More than a decade ago, CSPA made rounds optional for the Rigger A rating.
This was more a case of rule-writers adjusting rules to better fit reality. Since rounds had disappeared from Canadian DZs more than a decade earlier, young riggers whined about wasting time learning how to repack round canopies they had never seen nor expected to repack.

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riggerrob

More than a decade ago, CSPA made rounds optional for the Rigger A rating.
This was more a case of rule-writers adjusting rules to better fit reality. Since rounds had disappeared from Canadian DZs more than a decade earlier, young riggers whined about wasting time learning how to repack round canopies they had never seen nor expected to repack.



I can't blame them for not wanting to bother. Fortunately they've still got tables at Xenia (Greene County) and a good rigger who is so young that I'm sure he'll outlast me, let alone this old rig.
With the 180 day cycle I only get it packed once a year, that covers all the events where I might need it. I don't get any demos in the winter these days, at least nothing big enough that the FAA might show up. Which is good since it's hard on the knees. Our air show, third Sunday of September, tends to wrap things up.

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I state my personal experience, you think I'm making that up and now you ask for an FAA reference? Willing to bet a larger amount of money than you'll ever have that they won't know what I've seen. Go back to my 1st post. I can't find any clear statement on this from the FAA. Self confessed technotard I am, so I asked for help on the forum hence, that's where I think we are. Hope this brings you up to speed on this discussion.

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Your very first post said this:

Quote

So the FAA website says that the STC for the door mod for skydiving operations requires the pilot to wear a bailout rig



He's asking you for a link to that FAA website you referenced. Why is that so hard to understand?

- Dan G

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Bob_Church

After that accident in Wisconsin where the one pilot survived by bailing out I figured the FAA would start clamping down on that rule. I bought a used bailout rig with a Phantom for demos where the FAA might show up and want one. The biggest problem is getting a round packed but I've been lucky so far.
Another thing that we used to do, and works ok, is to take an older rig, something like a Wonderhog, and cut off the main flaps. If you loosen up the leg straps, just a little, and let it ride up the reserve will fit over top of the seat of a Cessna.



There is no blanket rule requiring pilots to wear a rig during jump operations unless the STC for that particular aircraft calls for it.
Other than Part 105, these are the only reference in the FAR’s to the use of a parachute

PART 21 – CERTIFICATION PROCEDURES FRO PRODUCTS AND PARTS
Subpart B – Type Certificates

21.35 Flight Tests.
(d) Each applicant must show for each flight test (except in a glider or a manned free balloon) that adequate provision is made for the flight test crew for emergency egress and the use of parachutes.


PART 91 – GENERAL OPERATING AND FLIGHT RULES
Subpart D – Special Flight Operations

91.307 Parachutes and parachuting.
(c) Unless each occupant of the aircraft is wearing an approved parachute, no pilot of a civil aircraft carrying any person (other than a crewmember) may execute any intentional maneuver that exceeds—

(1) A bank of 60 degrees relative to the horizon; or

(2) A nose-up or nose-down attitude of 30 degrees relative to the horizon.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

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Finally! Thanks for looking this up and sharing. I have been unable to find the individual STC's for the aircraft I mentioned earlier. My 182's are placarded that states everyone in the plane must wear a parachute. Perhaps we may get lucky and find that out in the future. Thanks for sharing with us.

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This was pulled from the FAA:Aircraft Modifications
Common examples of aircraft modifications include:
Removal of a cabin door and a jump door installed or air deflector installed.
Seat belts added (every skydiver is required to use a seat belt).
Steps installed or handholds for jumper climbout.
Door removal or modification approvals often have provisions that require all occupants, including the pilots, to wear a parachute if the door is opened.
Airspeed limitations related to door use, which must be placarded. Speed limitations for Cessnas are usually between 80-110 mph for door opening or flight with the door open.

Not sure if this answers yer "Technical accuracy" category. I guess focusing on a simple mistake I made over 20 yrs ago when I opened this account is much more important than getting some good info on the subject at hand....

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*** .......... different rules for different aircraft?[/quot

...........................................................

Most single-engined Cessna's were certified (FAA/Cessna cooperation) for flight with a door removed.
If the after-market, jump-door Supplementary Type certificate calls for the pilot to wear a Pilot Emergency Parachute, then he/she has to wear a parachute.

AFAIK The Cessna factory only makes jump-doors for Caravans. The Caravan's Pilot Operating Handbook will tell if the pilot is supposed to wear a parachute.

OTOH Both Caravan and Twin Otter were both offered with jump-doors/ramps from the factory. I have only seen factory-original, aluminum jump-doors installed on DHC6-100 Twin Otters flown by the Canadian Armed Forces.

Trivial question: what type of parachute was originally designed to fit into the pilot's seat of a Twin Otter?

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piisfish



The two most likely bail-out scenarios are engine fire or a jumper bending the tail during exit.
....
the only pilot I know who has bailed from his plane ... was a Porter pilot.
...



17.05. 1989 my Home DZ, Porter accident, http://www.pc-6.com/history/857.htm,
Student climbed out at about 3000ft, Rig popped open, Main Canopy entangled with stabilizer.
Pilot bailed out and all (including a tandem) -except of one- luckily managed to leave the plane. Porter spiraled into the ground..

So I guess, as a pilot having a Rig with you is not a bad idea on planes with idiots like us.
--------------------------------------------------

With sufficient thrust,
pigs just fly well

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baronn

This was pulled from the FAA:Aircraft Modifications: Door removal or modification approvals often have provisions that require all occupants, including the pilots, to wear a parachute if the door is opened.



This is a far cry from what you wrote in your first post:

Quote


So the FAA website says that the STC for the door mod for skydiving operations requires the pilot to wear a bailout rig.



"often have provisions" versus "requires".
"door removal or modification approvals" versus STC".

I know it sounds like we are being overly picky, but this type of thing matters. You can't just "pull" something from the FAA web site or a document. You must also understand it, and if you can't, you must ask someone to explain it.

And what if the door modification (and I'm talking about the type where you make it hinge from the top) was done via some method other than an STC? (Hint: Very few are done with an STC.)

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I THOUGHT that's what I was doing in my 1st post. Clearly I didn't word it to your liking. Please accept my deepest apology for causing you an undo amount of trauma and angst. I never meant to do that.
You and Cooper asked for a reference. This is what I found. Get as nit-picky as you desire. BTW, if "most" doors are not done thru an STC, then what approvals are being used?

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baronn

Get as nit-picky as you desire.



We are just trying to improve accuracy. This is very technical stuff, and if we get things wrong or incomplete, it really adds a lot of confusion.

Quote

BTW, if "most" doors are not done thru an STC, then what approvals are being used?



Here is a start for your research:
http://www.uspa.org/FAA-USPA/Aircraft-Modifications

Here is a nice resource too:
http://rgl.faa.gov/
Use the Supplemental Type Certificates database.
Search for "parachute"

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Did you read this? It's useless. The USPA wants to charge 100-200 for an STC to just REMOVE the door. Doesn't cover an inflight door.
Aircraft Modifications
Jump plane modifications that are not specifically described in the Aircraft Flight Manual must be accomplished by FAA issuance of either a Supplemental Type Certificate (STC) or a Field Approval. For $100 ($200 for non-members), USPA sells STCs for jump conversions of original and early model Cessna 170, 172, 180, and 182 aircraft. These STCs accommodate the removal of the door, not an in-flight door. E-mail the Government Relations department at [email protected] or call (540) 604-9740.
Not a single word about parachute requirements.
The 2nd one is a link to the regulation and guidance library. You have to search from there to ANOTHER link. Seems like the confusion that's being added here is by you.
I started this whole thing to see if I could just get a somewhat clear answer to what the rules are. If you know, say so. If you don't, that"s OK too. You've picked apart everything I've said and offered no assistance in getting a clear answer. Glad to know a USPA multi-year director is on the side of members and trying to help us follow the rules and stay in the air. Way to go Man

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likestojump

***The biggest problem is getting a round packed but I've been lucky so far..



Did you seriously have a rigger refuse to pack a round PEP with a round ???

So as a newer rigger, I made a decision not to pack rounds (and also reflexes but that's a whole separate issue). I was trained on them, and actually packed two right away for a pilot friend just after finishing. The problem is, its been around 2 years since then, and I haven't had a single person ask me to pack a round, and it might be two more before someone else asks me to do another. To me, its hard to feel like I keep up a level of competence in maintaining a pretty critical piece of equipment when I handle so infrequently. If I was a master rigger who worked at a large DZ, that's a whole different story, but I would image that would be a quite small percentage of all riggers.

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baronn

I started this whole thing to see if I could just get a somewhat clear answer to what the rules are.



The answer is that there is no simple answer. DBCOOPER and I were simply commenting on you posting things like "So the FAA website says that the STC for the door mod for skydiving operations requires the pilot to wear a bailout rig", which is incorrect.

I can't give you a simple answer, so I went to the trouble of trying to help you learn about aircraft modification for skydiving.

If you are not willing to do a little research to understand the issue, then I can't help you much.

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The uspa stc if very old. It was before the top hinged door was figured out for jump operations.
I recently bought a USPA door removal stc for one of my personal planes that I jump out of occasionally. I did it to be legal, to protect the pilots who fly for me. Most of these guys fly for a living and a ramp check with no stc could hurt their careers.
I think it mentions that the pilot must were an emergency rig.
I'll look in the log books to see if it does.

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The USPA stc was issued in 1959 and revised in 1963 that was a few years before any jump planes in our area had in flight doors installed. I think my Dad got his door installed in 1968 or 69.
The stc also includes the installation of a jump step and removal of the copilot side yoke.
Provision 6. of the stc says the pilot needs to have an emergency parachute. ( not the exact wording, I forgot the exact wording while walking from the hangar to the house, OLDSHimers)

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