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airdvr

The Trial of Derek Chauvin

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16 minutes ago, airdvr said:

When you stop breathing you suffocate don't you?  What is poly-substance use?

And this is why you really need the experts instead of airdvr determining the cause of death...

26 minutes ago, airdvr said:

Last I checked you still needed "beyond a reasonable doubt" to convict.  And I'll say it again...I believe

Luckily, it's not your doubt, because it's not reasonable. You're desperately seeking and trying to interpret scientific reports to fit your narrative, and failing badly at it. The jury will hopefully get better quality information and expert advice before coming to their conclusion.

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On 4/1/2021 at 4:40 PM, olofscience said:

This is something I'd expect from brenthutch, but you don't have to go down that road. You can still turn back.

Please reference post #50 of this thread for a well reasoned yet concise explanation of what is going on here.

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On 3/30/2021 at 7:32 PM, JoeWeber said:

Horse-fucking-shit. You have an agenda, as ever, and you are getting stomped, as usual. Playing the old "I'm just trying to learn here, fellows" card is getting old. 

Of course I have an agenda...everyone here does.  My agenda is pretty straightforward.  I question whether Floyd died by overdose vs. someone kneeling on his neck.  

What I'm seeing is many folks on here who refuse to even consider alternative possibilities.  What's their agenda?

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2 hours ago, olofscience said:

And this is why you really need the experts instead of airdvr determining the cause of death...

Luckily, it's not your doubt, because it's not reasonable. You're desperately seeking and trying to interpret scientific reports to fit your narrative, and failing badly at it. The jury will hopefully get better quality information and expert advice before coming to their conclusion.

I'll ask again...what is poly-substance use?

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12 minutes ago, airdvr said:

What I'm seeing is many folks on here who refuse to even consider alternative possibilities.  What's their agenda?

Setting up strawmen again. Of course I considered alternative possibilities, but I'll defer to the experts who already reported their conclusion. Unlike someone here who has no medical training whatsoever but thinks they know better.

16 minutes ago, airdvr said:

I'll ask again...what is poly-substance use?

Now you're using Zoe's technique...unless you really don't know.

Let me ask you, do you know what LD50 means?

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33 minutes ago, airdvr said:

Of course I have an agenda...everyone here does.  My agenda is pretty straightforward.  I question whether Floyd died by overdose vs. someone kneeling on his neck.  

What I'm seeing is many folks on here who refuse to even consider alternative possibilities.  What's their agenda?

Even cops are testifying that kneeling on his neck was uncalled for and could kill him. What is their agenda?

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3 hours ago, airdvr said:

When you stop breathing you suffocate don't you?  What is poly-substance use?

I'm not doubting that doctors, in a medical setting with an anesthesiologist monitoring things can load you up on fentanyl and not kill you.

Last I checked you still needed "beyond a reasonable doubt" to convict.  And I'll say it again...I believe Chauvin should be convicted along with the other officers who neglected to check on Floyd's condition.

No. When you stop breathing it's 'respiratory arrest'. 

When you are stopped from breathing, it's suffocation, or asphyxiation. 

"Poly-substance use" is 'more than one substance. 
Many (most?) accidental fentanyl overdoses happen because the user didn't realize there was fentanyl mixed in with (normally) heroin. Combining small amounts of fentanyl with other drugs is very dangerous.

One more indicator that Floyd didn't die from an OD: 
He didn't 'fade out'. He was fighting to stay alive, begging for his life, the entire time, until he lost consciousness. That's not how an OD goes.

On 4/1/2021 at 3:55 PM, airdvr said:

When I say it doesn't matter I mean it won't change the outcome of this trial...nothing will.  It's pre-determined.

How so?

You've repeated that Chauvin won't get a fair trial a bunch of times.

You've said that the city isn't ready for the reaction of an acquittal.
You've said you believe Floyd died of an OD.

You've claimed the independent ME was biased.

I haven't seen you even come close to backing any of this up with data. 

What about the trial is unfair?
The fact that a public video, showing Floyd's death was used in the opening statement? (I've seen some FB posts saying "if there's a video of the murder being committed shown on the first day of the trial, there really doesn't need to be a second day" - I disagree). 
The fact that the evidence is overwhelming?

That's not unfair. That's how it goes.

This is likely going to be a good example of the cliche:
'We gave him a fair trial, then we hanged him'

The outcome being pretty obvious doesn't mean it's 'pre-determined.'

Chauvin's defense has yet to present it's case. I have zero clue what they plan on doing, or what they might be able to pull off to raise the question of reasonable doubt.

But the defense had as much ability to pick jurors as did the prosecution.
And they will have a 'fair' chance to present a defense.

The reality that Chauvin either knew or should have known that his actions were killing Floyd, the fact that he continued to suffocate Floyd despite a lot of people imploring him to stop doesn't mean the trial will be 'unfair'.
It just means he's guilty of the crime of murder. Likely 2nd degree, also known as 'voluntary manslaughter'. Depends on how Minnesota statutes are written. 

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1 hour ago, wolfriverjoe said:

No. When you stop breathing it's 'respiratory arrest'. 

When you are stopped from breathing, it's suffocation, or asphyxiation. 

"Poly-substance use" is 'more than one substance. 
Many (most?) accidental fentanyl overdoses happen because the user didn't realize there was fentanyl mixed in with (normally) heroin. Combining small amounts of fentanyl with other drugs is very dangerous.

One more indicator that Floyd didn't die from an OD: 
He didn't 'fade out'. He was fighting to stay alive, begging for his life, the entire time, until he lost consciousness. That's not how an OD goes.

How so?

You've repeated that Chauvin won't get a fair trial a bunch of times.

You've said that the city isn't ready for the reaction of an acquittal.
You've said you believe Floyd died of an OD.

You've claimed the independent ME was biased.

I haven't seen you even come close to backing any of this up with data. 

What about the trial is unfair?
The fact that a public video, showing Floyd's death was used in the opening statement? (I've seen some FB posts saying "if there's a video of the murder being committed shown on the first day of the trial, there really doesn't need to be a second day" - I disagree). 
The fact that the evidence is overwhelming?

That's not unfair. That's how it goes.

This is likely going to be a good example of the cliche:
'We gave him a fair trial, then we hanged him'

The outcome being pretty obvious doesn't mean it's 'pre-determined.'

Chauvin's defense has yet to present it's case. I have zero clue what they plan on doing, or what they might be able to pull off to raise the question of reasonable doubt.

But the defense had as much ability to pick jurors as did the prosecution.
And they will have a 'fair' chance to present a defense.

The reality that Chauvin either knew or should have known that his actions were killing Floyd, the fact that he continued to suffocate Floyd despite a lot of people imploring him to stop doesn't mean the trial will be 'unfair'.
It just means he's guilty of the crime of murder. Likely 2nd degree, also known as 'voluntary manslaughter'. Depends on how Minnesota statutes are written. 

It just doesn't matter if he was shit faced, having an epileptic seizure, an allergic reaction or was LATER found to have  been snorting powdered Rhino Sphincter, the cops are supposed to be there to keep us alive. It's the job of the courts to kill us.

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15 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

It just doesn't matter if he was shit faced, having an epileptic seizure, an allergic reaction or was LATER found to have  been snorting powdered Rhino Sphincter, the cops are supposed to be there to keep us alive. It's the job of the courts to kill us.

I've agreed to that premise repeatedly.

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25 minutes ago, airdvr said:

I've agreed to that premise repeatedly.

You have. But you also seem to be clinging to some ideas that make it appear that in your heart you would like to find a way to believe that Mr. Floyd brought his demise on through his own actions. George was not perfect, but that does not make his killing any less of a murder.

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3 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

You have. But you also seem to be clinging to some ideas that make it appear that in your heart you would like to find a way to believe that Mr. Floyd brought his demise on through his own actions. George was not perfect, but that does not make his killing any less of a murder.

What I would like to believe is Chauvin didn't intentionally murder Floyd.

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4 minutes ago, airdvr said:

What I would like to believe is Chauvin didn't intentionally murder Floyd.

None of us will never know that. But what drugs may have be involved is not relevant to that question. Chauvin had good reason to believe George was dying, what seems most likely to me is that he did not care one way or another. It is clear from the testimony that his fellow officers know that there was no need to do what he did. 

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25 minutes ago, airdvr said:

What I would like to believe is Chauvin didn't intentionally murder Floyd.

I doubt that he did. He just didn't give a shit as long as Floyd got quiet. Being trained in restraining people, and having other emergency personnel as well as community members all telling him that things weren't going well is what, to me, makes it likely to pass the bounds of "negligent homicide" to murder. Negligent homicide isn't quite as direct as having your knee on a squirming body, feeling that body go limp, and leaving the knee there for an additional two minutes. While an EMT is asking to check the pulse.

Wendy P.

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43 minutes ago, wmw999 said:

I doubt that he did. He just didn't give a shit as long as Floyd got quiet. Being trained in restraining people, and having other emergency personnel as well as community members all telling him that things weren't going well is what, to me, makes it likely to pass the bounds of "negligent homicide" to murder. Negligent homicide isn't quite as direct as having your knee on a squirming body, feeling that body go limp, and leaving the knee there for an additional two minutes. While an EMT is asking to check the pulse.

Wendy P.

Exactly.

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4 hours ago, airdvr said:

What I would like to believe is Chauvin didn't intentionally murder Floyd.

Hi air,

Generally, this is the difference between first degree murder* vs manslaughter.  The laws of each state differ & and I am not familiar with the laws of MN.

Jerry Baumchen

* Generally, first degree murder usually means premeditated; you planned to kill the victim.

 

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8 hours ago, airdvr said:

What I would like to believe is Chauvin didn't intentionally murder Floyd.

Why?

Honest question.

From everything I've seen and read, Chauvin either knew or should have known Floyd was dying. 
He could have simply stood up.
He chose not to.

He's got a history of this sort of thing.
I'm just now finding out that there is a previous incident where he knelt on a suspect's neck for an extended time. It was captured on his body cam.

If you want to cling to some sort of noble belief that all cops are good people, wake up.
Minneapolis isn't as bad as Chicago, Dallas, NYC or LA, but there are bad cops everywhere.

People (lots of minorities, although not exclusively) have been claiming abuse, mistreatment, 'frame ups' and murder by cops basically forever.
The cops have always 'closed ranks', stood up for each other and tried to pretend it didn't happen.
And gotten away with it.


With the explosion of hand-held video capability, the truth is coming out.

Funny how many times we are now seeing video of stuff like this (or car crashes, or other stuff), yet zero of UFOs or Bigfoot.

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9 hours ago, airdvr said:

What I would like to believe is Chauvin didn't intentionally murder Floyd.

I'm not sure he did either. Intent isn't required for a charge of 3rd degree Murder under MN law:

"without intent to effect the death of any person, caus[ing] the death of another by perpetrating an act eminently dangerous to others and evincing a depraved mind, without regard for human life"

Chauvin was told twice that Floyd didn't have a pulse. If your next action after being informed someone's heart has stopped is to continue restraining them instead of administering aid, you were more interested in them staying dead than recovering.

I'm not saying it's a slam dunk but his actions on the day very much open the door for 3rd degree murder.

 

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4 hours ago, JerryBaumchen said:

Hi air,

Generally, this is the difference between first degree murder* vs manslaughter.  The laws of each state differ & and I am not familiar with the laws of MN.

Jerry Baumchen

* Generally, first degree murder usually means premeditated; you planned to kill the victim.

 

Frankly, I am fatigued by the airdvr position and not just with Chauvin but across the board. It's always well, if it's not A then it's not B. Simple as that. Well, there is nothing simple about the world we live in; a world that I am constantly struggling to understand. Must be nice to have it all so dialed in.

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1 hour ago, JoeWeber said:

Frankly, I am fatigued by the airdvr position and not just with Chauvin but across the board. It's always well, if it's not A then it's not B. Simple as that. Well, there is nothing simple about the world we live in; a world that I am constantly struggling to understand. Must be nice to have it all so dialed in.

Hi Joe,

IMO it's also 'nice' to believe in Santa Claus & the Tooth Fairy.

Jerry Baumchen

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2 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

Frankly, I am fatigued by the airdvr position and not just with Chauvin but across the board. It's always well, if it's not A then it's not B. 

I think it's more a case of simply wanting their side to "win."  And sowing confusion, uncertainty and doubt is about the only strategy that works in this case.  i.e. "well, it looked like the cop killed him.  But couldn't he have died at just that moment due to fentanyl?"  "Sure, maybe he used too much force.  But who's to say Chauvin didn't stop a murder by stopping this inner city type before he killed someone?"  "Cops are basically good.  Couldn't this good cop have made a simple mistake that anyone could have made?"

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10 hours ago, billvon said:

I think it's more a case of ...  Couldn't this good cop have made a simple mistake that anyone could have made?"

IMO airdvr is just stuck on the idea that cops have a difficult job to do. That any doubt should be in their favor. Not that of "protect and serve".

In a commercial A/C cockpit the pilots are trained to operate as a team with rigorous protocols for any deviations from standards. When a PIC busts minimums he is supposed to be reported and cockpit tapes can be reviewed by company safety officer.

The willingness of other cops to intervene and step in aggressively has been shown to be what it is in this matter. Other cops made the mildest suggests for the restraint of Floyd to end. Nothing more. This is the standard for the 'blue wall'. Silence and support for each other and not get rid of the bad ones.

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24 minutes ago, SkyDekker said:

It has been about 2 weeks since he has returned from Florida and he has gone pretty quiet. Hopefully they are not related.

In the 4th wave thread - cases are rapidly rising in 30 states, led by Florida among others. Hopefully not related.

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7 hours ago, olofscience said:

In the 4th wave thread - cases are rapidly rising in 30 states, led by Florida among others. Hopefully not related.

Of course, that's obvious baloney. That said, no one would admit they were wrong quicker than Brent, right?

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