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airdvr

The Trial of Derek Chauvin

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5 hours ago, airdvr said:

You are correct.  I shouldn't have been so absolute as to the cause of his death.

Still, you don't question...

 Fentanyl 11. He said, “that’s pretty high.” This level of fentanyl can cause pulmonary edema. Mr. Floyd’s lungs were 2-3x their normal weight at autopsy. That is fatal level of fentanyl under normal circumstances.

How is it ignored in subsequent autopsies as not a factor?

It's not ignored.

It's just not found to be the cause of death.

Why not? I don't know. I'm not a doctor. I didn't even stay at a Holiday Inn last night.

A couple guesses (if I'm wrong, someone with actual medical knowledge is welcome to correct me):

Timing. Maybe Floyd would have died in custody from an overdose. It's just that the drugs hadn't had enough time to take full effect.  In that case it was really stupid of Chauvin to kill a 'walking dead man'. 

Adrenalin. Maybe the struggle to keep from being killed caused Floyd's own body to pump enough adrenalin into his bloodstream to overcome the drugs.

Maybe something else.

 

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(edited)
10 hours ago, airdvr said:

Post #7

Let me just say that I don't believe Chauvin was responsible for his death directly.  Floyd died of a drug OD.  

Your own mental fiction ensures you’re not going to be happy about the outcome of this trial, and that’s because the trial is based on a different set of facts, not your personal belief. And the FACTS are the official report of the medical examiner.


 

Personally I think he’ll get done for manslaughter, unless something comes up showing a prior relationship and hostility.

And I also think that if that’s the charge he’s gotten off light. I don’t think he MEANT to kill Floyd, I just don’t think he gave a shit if he did. And that’s an issue.

Edited by yoink
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7 hours ago, yoink said:

I don’t think he MEANT to kill Floyd, I just don’t think he gave a shit if he did. And that’s an issue.

That, right there, is the crux of Black Lives Matter. Because he would have been far more likly to give a shit about killing a white person who looked like people he knows.

Wendy P.

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8 hours ago, yoink said:

Your own mental fiction ensures you’re not going to be happy about the outcome of this trial, and that’s because the trial is based on a different set of facts, not your personal belief. And the FACTS are the official report of the medical examiner.

I don't think it's mental fiction.  From what I've seen there are 4 reports.  The initial coroner findings, revised coroner findings, and 2 from ME's hired by the family days after the death.  I think the ME's hired by the family are biased.

Chauvin might have been able to save Floyd had he not been such an idiot.  I think the other LEO's who stood by are culpable as well.

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9 hours ago, yoink said:

Your own mental fiction ensures you’re not going to be happy about the outcome of this trial, and that’s because the trial is based on a different set of facts, not your personal belief. And the FACTS are the official report of the medical examiner.

Do you mean to tell me that the jury is not going to make their decision based on what FOX "news" reports?

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Just now, airdvr said:

I don't think it's mental fiction.  From what I've seen there are 4 reports.  The initial coroner findings, revised coroner findings, and 2 from ME's hired by the family days after the death.  I think the ME's hired by the family are biased.

Chauvin might have been able to save Floyd had he not been such an idiot.  I think the other LEO's who stood by are culpable as well.

Which of these 4 reports supports your opinion that Floyd's cause of death was an overdose, and why, specifically?

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2 hours ago, nwt said:

Okay I'll ask again: Why specifically do you feel this supports your opinion that Floyd's cause of death was an overdose? This document says it wasn't.

Not seeing where it says it wasn't.  Doesn't matter.

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5 minutes ago, airdvr said:

Not seeing where it says it wasn't.  Doesn't matter.

Clearly it doesn't matter. It also does not say impact was not the cause of death either. So maybe he fell from an aircraft. Doesn't matter.,

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1 hour ago, airdvr said:

Not seeing where it says it wasn't.  Doesn't matter.

It really REALLY does.

 

You don’t get to state a cause of death just because it wasn’t mentioned in a coroners report. 

That’s a new level of crazy.

 

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Just now, yoink said:

It really REALLY does.

 

You don’t get to state a cause of death just because it wasn’t mentioned in a coroners report. 

That’s a new level of crazy.

 

It's not even a coroners report--it's written notes that a third party wrote down after speaking with the medical examiner. It says it could have been ruled an overdose if the circumstances were different... in context with his report which clearly states the cause of death. The circumstances weren't different--they were what they were, and the cause of death was what it was!

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Just now, airdvr said:

When I say it doesn't matter I mean it won't change the outcome of this trial...nothing will.  It's pre-determined.

Of course it won't--because it supports the same outcome all the other evidence supports

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1 hour ago, nwt said:

It's not even a coroners report--it's written notes that a third party wrote down after speaking with the medical examiner. It says it could have been ruled an overdose if the circumstances were different... in context with his report which clearly states the cause of death. The circumstances weren't different--they were what they were, and the cause of death was what it was!

"But your honor - my friend's roommate talked to the coroner and clearly stated that he died of a drug overdose!  That's not hearsay at all.  He literally heard him say it!"

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On 3/31/2021 at 7:46 AM, airdvr said:

I don't think it's mental fiction.  From what I've seen there are 4 reports.  The initial coroner findings, revised coroner findings, and 2 from ME's hired by the family days after the death.  I think the ME's hired by the family are biased.

Chauvin might have been able to save Floyd had he not been such an idiot.  I think the other LEO's who stood by are culpable as well.

On what are you basing the claim that the ME hired by the family is biased?
Actual data?
REAL information?

Or do you just want it to be that way, like him dying of a drug OD?

Think about it.
The family wanted the truth most of all.
If (as it turned out), he had been murdered by Chauvin, they were going to sue.

For both of those, they would be best served by an expert, impartial ME.
For their own satisfaction and peace of mind.
And for any legal proceedings. 
Do you think a biased autopsy report would be accepted by the defense?
Either in a criminal trial or a civil suit?
Don't you think the defense would go through that report with a 'fine tooth comb' and do everything possible to discredit it?
Don't you think the family and their attorneys & advisers KNOW THAT ?

I know an attorney who specializes in defending doctors from medical malpractice suits. We got talking about what he does and how he does it a while ago (like years ago). 
One thing he said that's very important: Know who put together the 'independent reports' the plaintiffs bring to the table. 
Know who they are, what their reputation is and what their track record looks like. 
He said flat out that there were 'experts' who he could get discredited very quickly.
And those who he would never be able to.
Which one the plaintiffs were using had a huge impact on the strategy.

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From the official autopsy report 

https://www.hennepin.us/-/media/hennepinus/residents/public-safety/documents/floyd-autopsy-6-3-20.pdf

VI. Toxicology (see attached report for full details; testing
performed on antemortem blood specimens collected 5/25/20 at
9:00 p.m. at HHC and on postmortem urine)
A. Blood drug and novel psychoactive substances screens:
1. Fentanyl 11 ng/mL
2. Norfentanyl 5.6 ng/mL
3. 4-ANPP 0.65 ng/mL
4. Methamphetamine 19 ng/mL
5. 11-Hydroxy Delta-9 THC 1.2 ng/mL;
Delta-9 Carboxy THC 42 ng/mL; Delta-9 THC 2.9 ng/mL
6. Cotinine positive
7. Caffeine positive
B. Blood volatiles: negative for ethanol, methanol,
isopropanol, or acetone
C. Urine drug screen: presumptive positive for cannabinoids,
amphetamines, and fentanyl/metabolite
D. Urine drug screen confirmation: morphine (free) 86 ng/mL 

https://www.emcdda.europa.eu/publications/drug-profiles/fentanyl_en

Blood concentrations of approximately 7 ng/ml or greater have been associated with fatalities where poly-substance use was involved. While fatalities have been reported after therapeutic use, many deaths have occurred as a result of the misuse of pharmaceutical products. Both used and unused fentanyl patches have been injected, smoked, snorted or taken orally with fatal consequences.

 

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2 hours ago, airdvr said:

Blood concentrations of approximately 7 ng/ml or greater have been associated with fatalities where poly-substance use was involved.

Okay you just keep digging. From the same link, 1 sentence before the sentence you quoted:

Quote

The recommended serum concentration for analgesia is 1–2 ng/ml and for anaesthesia it is 10–20 ng/ml.

So if using it as an anaesthetic, doctors can get it up to 20ng/ml without killing the patient. Yes, 7ng/ml have been associated with fatalities but it's not a fatal dose, it just means that it increases the risk at that level. Like how having heart disease increases your risk of a heart attack and some people have been found dead because of heart disease, but if you strangle someone who has heart disease until they die, the cause of death is not heart disease, it's suffocation.

And the official autopsy report says as much - cause of death was suffocation due to neck compression.

Are you making your own report with the cause of death? Because we've already established you have no medical credentials whatsoever.

Edited by olofscience
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1 hour ago, olofscience said:

Okay you just keep digging. From the same link, 1 sentence before the sentence you quoted:

So if using it as an anaesthetic, doctors can get it up to 20ng/ml without killing the patient. Yes, 7ng/ml have been associated with fatalities but it's not a fatal dose, it just means that it increases the risk at that level. Like how having heart disease increases your risk of a heart attack and some people have been found dead because of heart disease, but if you strangle someone who has heart disease until they die, the cause of death is not heart disease, it's suffocation.

And the official autopsy report says as much - cause of death was suffocation.

Are you making your own report with the cause of death? Because we've already established you have no medical credentials whatsoever.

When you stop breathing you suffocate don't you?  What is poly-substance use?

I'm not doubting that doctors, in a medical setting with an anesthesiologist monitoring things can load you up on fentanyl and not kill you.

Last I checked you still needed "beyond a reasonable doubt" to convict.  And I'll say it again...I believe Chauvin should be convicted along with the other officers who neglected to check on Floyd's condition.

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1 hour ago, airdvr said:

From the official autopsy report

Blood concentrations of approximately 7 ng/ml or greater have been associated with fatalities where poly-substance use was involved. While fatalities have been reported after therapeutic use, many deaths have occurred as a result of the misuse of pharmaceutical products. Both used and unused fentanyl patches have been injected, smoked, snorted or taken orally with fatal consequences.

 

 

1 hour ago, olofscience said:

Okay you just keep digging. From the same link, 1 sentence before the sentence you quoted:...

spacer.png

 

"The Hennepin County Medical Examiner's Office took the rare step of releasing a full autopsy report into the death of George Floyd.

The examiner, Dr. Andrew Baker

After initially suggesting an underlying heart condition and potential intoxication combined with being held down by three police officers was behind his death, the medical examiner released a final ruling this week of "cardiopulmonary arrest complicating law enforcement subdural, restraint, and neck compression."

This basically means he went into cardiac arrest brought on by his restraint from the three officers – one of whom, Derek Chauvin, had his knee against Floyd's neck for almost 9 minutes."

 

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