The Trial of Derek Chauvin

[billeisele 122]

If the outcome is anything less than murder there will be backlash. The charges are confusing, the attached document is a good explanation. It's a difficult situation and there are plenty of facts to make it complicated and confusing. No doubt the media will discus parts of the trial and the details will be ignored, the details are too complicated for the typical news coverage. Plenty of folks will think guilty, many will think innocent, and then there are some in the middle. The talking head legal experts will decipher everything and have opinions.

What are the charges against Derek Chauvin? - StarTribune.com

[billvon 2,380]

26 minutes ago, airdvr said:

Are you saying it's not at least a possibility?

Sure it's a possibility.  It's also a possibility that Trump ordered Chauvin to kill him to appease his white supremacist base.

Shall we arrest Trump?  You know, just to cover all the bases.

[airdvr 197]

Way to reduce the argument to the impossible Bill.  Oldest sales trick in the book.  Care to add anything of value?

[JoeWeber 2,294]

9 minutes ago, airdvr said:

Way to reduce the argument to the impossible Bill.  Oldest sales trick in the book.  Care to add anything of value?

What else is there to add? It dripped sarcasm, added a canard and, in just a few words, pointed out the futility of even attempting to answer your question. I only knew he'd posted because I was certain I'd heard his hand slap his forehead.

[JerryBaumchen 1,046]

3 hours ago, airdvr said:

Why was he complaining about not being able to breath before he was on the ground?

Hi air,

Why did he use the bathroom when he got out of bed that morning?

Both questions are irrelevant to his murder.

Jerry Baumchen

[billvon 2,380]

46 minutes ago, airdvr said:

Way to reduce the argument to the impossible Bill.

But it's not impossible!  It's quite possible.  It is, of course, very improbable, but you'd be lying if you said it was impossible.

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

4 hours ago, airdvr said:

Why was he complaining about not being able to breath before he was on the ground?

Because he was having trouble breathing?

Maybe he was entering 'overdose'.
Maybe his heart condition was 'acting up' and causing issues.

Maybe he was anxious because he was likely going to be arrested for counterfeiting.
Maybe he was afraid he was going to be killed during the arrest.

In any case, for the cops to take him to the ground and kneel on his neck after he complained of a medical issue doesn't mean the medical issue and any contribution to his death removes their responsibility for his death.

In fact, it would increase their culpability. They should have done a quick medical assessment and called for an ambulance if he was truly in distress. 
 

[nwt 131]

27 minutes ago, wolfriverjoe said:

In fact, it would increase their culpability. They should have done a quick medical assessment and called for an ambulance if he was truly in distress

No kidding--I can't believe it took so many responses to point out that if someone is complaining of difficulty breathing, that it becomes less reasonable to put your knee on their neck for 8 minutes. Jesus. I'm glad at least someone got to it before I did.

[airdvr 197]

2 minutes ago, nwt said:

No kidding--I can't believe it took so many responses to point out that if someone is complaining of difficulty breathing, that it becomes less reasonable to put your knee on their neck for 8 minutes. Jesus. I'm glad at least someone got to it before I did.

Post #7

Let me just say that I don't believe Chauvin was responsible for his death directly.  Floyd died of a drug OD.  But...Chauvin and the others had a duty of care that was neglected.  One of those fools should have stepped in to make sure Floyd was OK.  

[nwt 131]

13 hours ago, Phil1111 said:

The autopsy report from Hennepin County Medical Examiner's Office concludes the cause of death was "cardiopulmonary arrest complicating law enforcement subdual, restraint, and neck compression." That conclusion, death due to heart failure, differs from the one reached by an independent examiner hired by the Floyd family; that report listed the cause of death as "asphyxiation from sustained pressure."

I disagree. As a medical doctor, let me help you interpret this: Cardiopulmonary arrest is simply another term for death. It doesn't have anything to do with heart failure. This says he died from law enforcement subdual, restraint, and neck compression.

[nwt 131]

2 minutes ago, airdvr said:

Post #7

Let me just say that I don't believe Chauvin was responsible for his death directly.  Floyd died of a drug OD.  But...Chauvin and the others had a duty of care that was neglected.  One of those fools should have stepped in to make sure Floyd was OK.  

Two separate autopsies say Chauvin was directly responsible for Floyd's death. Full stop.

[airdvr 197]

1 minute ago, nwt said:

Two separate autopsies say Chauvin was directly responsible for Floyd's death. Full stop.

More than likely what will happen in the trial.

[olofscience 420]

13 minutes ago, airdvr said:

Floyd died of a drug OD.

Okay, 2 autopsies, then there's a medical doctor here saying it was the knee...then there's your version.

If there was a time to flash your medical credentials, that would be now.

12 minutes ago, nwt said:

I disagree. As a medical doctor, let me help you interpret this: Cardiopulmonary arrest is simply another term for death. It doesn't have anything to do with heart failure. This says he died from law enforcement subdual, restraint, and neck compression.

Yes, my doctor friend keeps getting annoyed by news reports about "cardiac arrest" - he says "cardiac arrest IS death, not cause of death!". The term for heart failure due to heart disease is myocardial infarction I think, but I'm not a doctor. But anyway, let's wait up on airdvr's medical credentials so we know we can trust his expert opinion.

[airdvr 197]

I'm not holding myself out as an expert.  I'm asking questions.

[olofscience 420]

2 minutes ago, airdvr said:

I'm not holding myself out as an expert.  I'm asking questions.

But you weren't asking questions. Below is a statement from you, loud and clear without a question mark:

31 minutes ago, airdvr said:

Floyd died of a drug OD.

That's not a question. That's a declarative sentence that's contrary to the conclusion of some, if not most, medical experts involved in the case.

[nwt 131]

16 minutes ago, olofscience said:

The term for heart failure due to heart disease is myocardial infarction I think, but I'm not a doctor.

FYI heart failure and myocardial infarction are both proper medical terms that mean different things. Either or both could be listed as a cause of death.

Myocardial infarction (MI) is the technical term for a heart attack, when you have a blockage in one or more of the arteries feeding the heart muscle.

Heart failure means the heart is doing a poor job of pumping blood.

One can lead to the other.

[airdvr 197]

4 minutes ago, olofscience said:

But you weren't asking questions. Below is a statement from you, loud and clear without a question mark:

That's not a question. That's a declarative sentence that's contrary to the conclusion of some, if not most, medical experts involved in the case.

You are correct.  I shouldn't have been so absolute as to the cause of his death.

Still, you don't question...

 Fentanyl 11. He said, “that’s pretty high.” This level of fentanyl can cause pulmonary edema. Mr. Floyd’s lungs were 2-3x their normal weight at autopsy. That is fatal level of fentanyl under normal circumstances.

How is it ignored in subsequent autopsies as not a factor?

[olofscience 420]

Just now, airdvr said:

Still, you don't question...

I know it's hard to believe, but there are areas of expertise that I actually have less knowledge or experience on.

When this happens I keep my mouth shut until I know enough to ask questions. My own field gets enough idiots oversimplifying and misunderstanding how complex my job is, I don't have to subject other experts in other fields to the same thing.

(and when I do understand enough, believe me, I ask a LOT of questions - but not before)

[nwt 131]

6 minutes ago, airdvr said:

You are correct.  I shouldn't have been so absolute as to the cause of his death.

Still, you don't question...

 Fentanyl 11. He said, “that’s pretty high.” This level of fentanyl can cause pulmonary edema. Mr. Floyd’s lungs were 2-3x their normal weight at autopsy. That is fatal level of fentanyl under normal circumstances.

How is it ignored in subsequent autopsies as not a factor?

It wasn't ignored--it was acknowledged and determined not to be the cause of death.

[Phil1111 908]

57 minutes ago, nwt said:

I disagree. As a medical doctor, let me help you interpret this: Cardiopulmonary arrest is simply another term for death. It doesn't have anything to do with heart failure. This says he died from law enforcement subdual, restraint, and neck compression.

Fair enough. IMO both medical reports didn't say the levels of ingested drugs at the time or shortly before the altercation was the cause of death.

W/O derailing the thread what are your thoughts on the proximity between being maced January 6, and heart attack of January 7th. re the Capitol police officer death. So far the medical examiner still hasn't released that report. That close proximity is certainly suspicious. Obviously there were all of the other surrounding events of that day.

[nwt 131]

1 minute ago, Phil1111 said:

IMO both medical reports didn't say the levels of ingested drugs at the time or shortly before the altercation was the cause of death.

That's more than anyone's opinion--that's a fact.

2 minutes ago, Phil1111 said:

W/O derailing the thread what are your thoughts on the proximity between being maced January 6, and heart attack of January 7th. re the Capitol police officer death.

I'm not familiar

[Phil1111 908]

8 minutes ago, nwt said:

I'm not familiar

"The Capitol Police announced Sicknick’s death in a Jan. 7 press release, writing that the officer died at roughly 9:30 p.m. "due to injuries sustained while on-duty." Sicknick, 42, was injured Jan. 6 "while physically engaging with protesters," the press release said. He collapsed after he returned to his division office and was taken to a local hospital, where he died....

That lines up with what Ken Sicknick, the officer’s brother, told ProPublica for a Jan. 8 report. Ken Sicknick said his brother texted him the night of the riot that he was in "good shape" but had been pepper sprayed twice. But on Jan. 7, Ken Sicknick and the rest of the family were informed that Brian Sicknick had experienced a blood clot and a stroke, the report said."

I understand that thats very limited information. Whole story of what little is known.

[nwt 131]

4 minutes ago, Phil1111 said:

"The Capitol Police announced Sicknick’s death in a Jan. 7 press release, writing that the officer died at roughly 9:30 p.m. "due to injuries sustained while on-duty." Sicknick, 42, was injured Jan. 6 "while physically engaging with protesters," the press release said. He collapsed after he returned to his division office and was taken to a local hospital, where he died....

That lines up with what Ken Sicknick, the officer’s brother, told ProPublica for a Jan. 8 report. Ken Sicknick said his brother texted him the night of the riot that he was in "good shape" but had been pepper sprayed twice. But on Jan. 7, Ken Sicknick and the rest of the family were informed that Brian Sicknick had experienced a blood clot and a stroke, the report said."

I understand that thats very limited information. Whole story of what little is known.

If you're asking me if it's plausible that pepper spray could have contributed to his death, I don't know. Sorry, I don't really have any additional insight.

[billvon 2,380]

4 hours ago, airdvr said:

How is it ignored in subsequent autopsies as not a factor?

It was not ignored.  It was factored in.

You can have someone with a fatal level of alcohol in their body, still walking (staggering) around on the street.  If you see them staggering about and shoot them in the head, you will still go to jail for murder.  Because the cause of death will be the fact that they were shot in the head.

[JoeWeber 2,294]

5 hours ago, airdvr said:

I'm not holding myself out as an expert.  I'm asking questions.

Horse-fucking-shit. You have an agenda, as ever, and you are getting stomped, as usual. Playing the old "I'm just trying to learn here, fellows" card is getting old.