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The Trial of Derek Chauvin

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8 hours ago, Phil1111 said:

I have to agree with Joe and BIGUN. Usually you make some good points but an exaggerated sense of pointed specificity. Sometimes leads to argument for the sake of argument.

Carry-on.

Go back and read the thread. Joe used the date 2001. Bigun, with no prompting of any sort by anyone, said "That's exactly when it started." If you think I'm to blame for being too specific right now then quite frankly you're all fucking crazy.

Furthermore, it doesn't matter a bit to me whether police militarisation accelerated in 2001, 2006 or 2013 or whenever Bigun is now saying it started in response to 9/11 - I'm saying it's been going on since way before any of that. Further than that, I'm also saying - which I've made very clear several times - that the entire discussion of changes in funding within the police don't touch the half of what has led to the 'defund the police' movement and what changes could be made for the better. 

So again, if you think that any of my main points here hang on whether something happened specifically in 2001 or not... then I refer you back to paragraph 1;)

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7 minutes ago, jakee said:

Go back and read the thread.....

So again, if you think that any of my main points here hang on whether something happened specifically in 2001 or not... then I refer you back to paragraph 1;)

Well you got me there. Sometimes when the nail is hammered past the flush position. I loose track of whether a finish or spiral nail was in use.

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(edited)

Well, the police have been militarized throughout US history. This is nothing new. They have even been privatized to fight the organization of labor unions a century or more ago. They are more or less a para-military organization and come better equipped all the time. There are a boatload of problems going with them, that's a given. 

One of the biggest problems I think is that there is no standardization on training. In other words, small-town police departments will hire new recruits and give them little training beyond the minimum. Or fail to warn them about the stress of just being a cop in the first place. 

Recently, someone...somewhere...picked my name out of a hat to serve on a loose committee to advise WA state and more specifically...the Seattle Police Department...what should be done about this mess?

I only had one suggestion. I said that in every state, the state government should establish professional recruit training centers, and that ALL persons wanting to become a police officer in that state...whether it was in a town of 200 or 200,000 people...be required to do six months minimum paid training to become an officer in this state. 

This is why in Washington state you will find that Washington State Patrol officers are much better cops than any of the local cops. They have the academy near Shelton, WA and it's a pretty rigorous training program. But if you get through it, you will be (with few exceptions) one heck of a good representative of a police force. We have a very good State Patrol here. They will be polite to you, even if you cuss them out and spit in their faces. You will be going to jail, of course. But they are always polite about it. You don't hear about unjustified shootings from the WSP either. If there are, they are extremely rare. 

So...my thought was...why not extend this type of required training to ALL police officers in EVERY state? Made sense to me. That was my recommendation to the civilian committee members. 

EDIT: As you probably heard, the prosecutor in the Chauvin case wants him to get 30 years, and Chauvin's lawyer wants probation. The minimum, (or typical sentence anyway) for Chauvin's crime is 12 and 1/2 years. Prosecutor says because Chauvin was cruel, did this in front of children, etc he should get the max. Chauvin's lawyer counters that this would be a death sentence because cops live shorter lives on average than a typical citizen. He has stats, whatever...¬¬

There will be good time credits, probably 1/3 off his sentence for good behavior. So I say maybe give him twenty years, and only because he has no previous criminal record. But if the judge drops the Big 30 on him, I won't cry about it. Because he is a former cop, they won't send him to the really bad prisons anyway. They usually have a special unit for those guys, just so they don't get killed the first month they are there. 

Edited by RobertMBlevins
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(edited)
10 hours ago, RobertMBlevins said:

I only had one suggestion. I said that in every state, the state government should establish professional recruit training centers, and that ALL persons wanting to become a police officer in that state...whether it was in a town of 200 or 200,000 people...be required to do six months minimum paid training to become an officer in this state. 

This is why in Washington state you will find that Washington State Patrol officers are much better cops than any of the local cops. They have the academy near Shelton, WA and it's a pretty rigorous training program. But if you get through it, you will be (with few exceptions) one heck of a good representative of a police force. We have a very good State Patrol here. They will be polite to you, even if you cuss them out and spit in their faces. You will be going to jail, of course. But they are always polite about it. You don't hear about unjustified shootings from the WSP either. If there are, they are extremely rare. 

So...my thought was...why not extend this type of required training to ALL police officers in EVERY state? Made sense to me. That was my recommendation to the civilian committee members. 

That is just one step short of an idea I read about a couple years ago, that I firmly support: All PD's in each state should be pulled into the state PD.

As well as uniform policies and procedures, there would be economic advantages of economies of scale in procuring equipment and supplies.

Edited by ryoder

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4 hours ago, ryoder said:

That is just one step short of an idea I read about a couple years ago, that I firmly support: All PD's is each state should be pulled into the state PD.

As well as uniform policies and procedures, there would be economic advantages of economies of scale in procuring equipment and supplies.

Hi Robert & Robert,

Re:  All PD's is each state should be pulled into the state PD.

I also am an advocate for this.

In Oregon all LEO's must be certificated by the state.  All LEO's, to get that certification, must go thru the state Department of Public Safety Standards & Training.

Department of Public Safety Standards & Training : Career in Criminal Justice : Criminal Justice : State of Oregon

Show this to Gov. Inslee.

Jerry Baumchen

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On 6/2/2021 at 11:07 PM, Phil1111 said:

Well you got me there. Sometimes when the nail is hammered past the flush position. I loose track of whether a finish or spiral nail was in use.

Right, but in this case if you've lost track of the fact that Bigun is trying to focus purely omn whether one thing happened on one specific date in order to distract from the fact that his entire argument is bogus then you should pay more attention before you comment.

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On 6/2/2021 at 5:07 PM, Phil1111 said:

Well you got me there. Sometimes when the nail is hammered past the flush position. I loose track of whether a finish or spiral nail was in use.

Arguing with Jakee is rather like playing chess against Deep Blue or Go against AlphaGo. 

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7 minutes ago, kallend said:

Arguing with Jakee is rather like playing chess against Deep Blue or Go against AlphaGo. 

Some people you can argue with, exploring and ventilating a topic. Others you can only argue against. 
Wendy P. 

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2 hours ago, wmw999 said:

Some people you can argue with, exploring and ventilating a topic

Probably the main reason most of us stay in touch on here and have for so long. Sometimes, I think about how it all started as an extension of our conversations at the DZ's and has spanned over many years, subjects, different positions, and ultimately enough respect to listen. 

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5 hours ago, BIGUN said:

Probably the main reason most of us stay in touch on here and have for so long. Sometimes, I think about how it all started as an extension of our conversations at the DZ's and has spanned over many years, subjects, different positions, and ultimately enough respect to listen. 

Nicely put.

There's a wide enough variety of experiences and backgrounds on here that the opinions have some weight behind them.
Even if I don't agree with them, if they are thought through and presented intelligently, I'll read and consider them. 

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16 hours ago, BIGUN said:

Probably the main reason most of us stay in touch on here and have for so long. Sometimes, I think about how it all started as an extension of our conversations at the DZ's and has spanned over many years, subjects, different positions, and ultimately enough respect to listen. 

i cut my internet teeth on this forum 20 years ago so to speak.  i recall when i first got on here i had no idea how to act on the internet and learned how to effectively argue here.  i really miss the old layout, it was what i judged every forum i ever visited against.  i just wish i had been a licensed traveling jumper then to have met some of you in person.  oh well, the vaccine has made me invulnerable to covid since i have o positive blood, so travel will commence when i can afford it now that i have an aad in my rig.

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On 6/2/2021 at 4:56 PM, jakee said:

Go back and read the thread. Joe used the date 2001. Bigun, with no prompting of any sort by anyone, said "That's exactly when it started." If you think I'm to blame for being too specific right now then quite frankly you're all fucking crazy...

Close but not quite.

Bigun used the 'Sept 2001' start date.
I said it had been happening long before that.

 

As an example, the 1997 "North Hollywood Shootout" (search that term if you are interested) was a turning point in the way cops were armed.
Two well armed and well armored (wearing body armor) robbers hit a Bank of America, got into a shootout with the cops and were far better equipped than the cops that showed up.

The shotguns & pistols the cops had were woefully inadequate for the situation. One of the multiple ways the cops fought back was to go to a nearby gun store and 'borrow' several rifles. 
After that, almost every cop car had a rifle on board. They'd always carried shotguns, and many (most?) rural cops had some sort of rifle handy. 
Those were often 'hunting type' rifles. Out west, with large expanses of open country, a scoped bolt action was not uncommon. Other places, smaller 'handy-type' rifles were more common. Lever action rifles (think 'cowboy movie' type) or even old WW2 M1 Carbines were widely chosen.

After the BoA shootout, just about every cop ended up with an AR type, or other military style rifle. Some (not all) were real 'assault rifles' (that means 'select fire', capable of full auto, classed by the BATF as 'machine guns'). 
The department in my small town (about 11k people) put an semi auto AR in each cop car (4 total). The next town over (same size) got really nice (expensive) H&K rifles. Select fire. 
Both departments used the shooting range I'm part of for their training, so I got to see the gear and chat with them a bit. 

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22 1/2 years.

Prosecutor wanted 30, Defense wanted time served and probation.

 

I guess there won't be any riots this time.

Link to NPR story:
https://www.npr.org/sections/trial-over-killing-of-george-floyd/2021/06/25/1009524284/derek-chauvin-sentencing-george-floyd-murder

Chauvin's mom spoke, claiming he's not an 'aggressive, heartless and uncaring person.' 
I guess she didn't see the video.
She also expressed concern that she might not live to see him released from prison.
However, she can go visit him. 
Floyd's family don't have that, thanks to her son.

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