The Trial of Derek Chauvin

[jakee 1,254]

45 minutes ago, BIGUN said:

No shit. I'll say it again - qualified and sovereign immunity allows this type of stupid shit to continue.   

There’s a WaPo article by a former prosecutor and defence attorney which points out that prosecutors and AGs have a lot of power to crack down on bad police even with qualified immunity.

She uses an example from her city of a cop who had 6 cases thrown out by different judges because they all found him to be ‘not credible’ - read ‘making shit up’ - but he faced no disciplinary action from the PD and local prosecutors continued to aggressively prosecute cases based on his arrests. The point she makes is that it’s not a prosecutor’s job to seek the maximum number of convictions possible under any circumstances from cases brought to them by police. Prosecutors don’t work for the cops, they work for the people and their job is to seek justice on behalf of the people. Prosecutors can and should refuse to prosecute cases based on the say so of officers like the one above who have repeatedly been found dishonest, violent or corrupt. If they do prosecute, they should fully disclose to the defence any incriminatory evidence of an officers past misconduct including body cam footage from previous complaints. Then what good is it to the PD to put an officer on the street who can’t bring cases?

[billvon 2,384]

On 5/24/2021 at 8:36 AM, gowlerk said:

Same as moving the child abusing priest to the next parish. It's the easiest thing to do when you and your organization are corrupt and you still want a chance to advance within it. People who rock the boat know they will likely be pushed overboard and left to drown.

One of the things that led to my disillusionment with my family church (the church were I grew up) is that it was one of the "shelters" that the local bishop transferred priests with accusations of pedophilia to.  It was a quiet suburban church where nothing ever happened, and so was a perfect place for them - there was so much local inertia that scandals couldn't get a foothold.

[JoeWeber 2,294]

14 hours ago, BIGUN said:

Cops Strip-Searched a Black Teen in the Street in Broad Daylight

Then, they searched the family home with guns drawn. 

This is one of those "WTF were you thinking moments." Not just; you were a dumb-shit, but you were both dumb-shits. 

Of particular note in the article:

"All of the officers involved in this incident have continued to work on the force, and no punishment has been handed down for the cop who exposed and touched the teen and his older brother, or any of the other officers, according to WAFB. There is now an investigation into Sgt. Camallo's role in the incident.  

Louisiana State representative Ted James said he believes qualified immunity, or the inability for individual offices to get sued, is to blame for disturbing overreach of power by the Baton Rouge cop’s last year."

No shit. I'll say it again - qualified and sovereign immunity allows this type of stupid shit to continue.   

 

Agreed. So then shall we defund the Police and dissolve Police Unions, too?

[BIGUN 1,050]

7 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

Agreed. So then shall we defund the Police and dissolve Police Unions, too?

Morning, Joe.

I don't think defunding the police is a solution. I believe a shift towards three rings of LE would help, the first ring being more like "Community Service Officers" (CSO's). Bill & I grew up not that far from each other in Queens, NY. I hung out at Ryan JHS (Middle School) until I joined the military. In the evenings, it was not unusual for the cops to stop by and just hang with us. They'd shoot hoops for a bit until the radio went off, but they also lived in the neighborhood.  They knew who the good kids were, the bad kids, and the one's the could salvage. They'd take you home to your parents when you fucked up and I can't remember a time when they shot anyone.

Unions - I have an issue with those in government service belonging to a union.    

[JoeWeber 2,294]

2 hours ago, BIGUN said:

Morning, Joe.

I don't think defunding the police is a solution. I believe a shift towards three rings of LE would help, the first ring being more like "Community Service Officers" (CSO's). Bill & I grew up not that far from each other in Queens, NY. I hung out at Ryan JHS (Middle School) until I joined the military. In the evenings, it was not unusual for the cops to stop by and just hang with us. They'd shoot hoops for a bit until the radio went off, but they also lived in the neighborhood.  They knew who the good kids were, the bad kids, and the one's the could salvage. They'd take you home to your parents when you fucked up and I can't remember a time when they shot anyone.

Unions - I have an issue with those in government service belonging to a union.    

I'm not so much for defunding them as I am for defanging them. Maybe they should need to load first or wear funny hats or something to make it all less serious on initial contact.

I also think Police Unions need to be abolished if they cannot be separated from the punishment process. Back when the cops would sometimes take you home if you were plastered or just tell you to sleep it off. Not saying that's good, just saying it was different four decades ago. If your skin color was correct the cops were your friends and you wouldn't think twice about asking one for help. These day's I don't feel that way.

[BIGUN 1,050]

44 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

it was different four decades ago. If your skin color was correct the cops were your friends and you wouldn't think twice about asking one for help. These day's I don't feel that way.

Twenty-years ago our world changed and with it; the focus of LE who considered the terrorist threat to be high for their jurisdiction especially in metropolitan areas, or in jurisdictions with critical infrastructure.

Traditional funding for law enforcement has undergone some significant changes, particularly with the ending of such U.S. Department of Justice (DOJ) programs as the Community-Oriented Policing Services (COPS), which provided LE with funding to hire and reassign officers to community-policing activities with that of terrorist preparedness funding from DHS – there was an attitudinal & behavioral shift. 

The focus shifted internally where the need for increased counterterrorism and homeland security efforts at the local level took the mission away from public safety efforts.

But, that's just one man's opinion. 

[sfzombie13 307]

23 hours ago, BIGUN said:

Twenty-years ago our world changed and with it; the focus of LE who considered the terrorist threat to be high for their jurisdiction especially in metropolitan areas, or in jurisdictions with critical infrastructure.

Traditional funding for law enforcement has undergone some significant changes, particularly with the ending of such U.S. Department of Justice (DOJ) programs as the Community-Oriented Policing Services (COPS), which provided LE with funding to hire and reassign officers to community-policing activities with that of terrorist preparedness funding from DHS – there was an attitudinal & behavioral shift. 

The focus shifted internally where the need for increased counterterrorism and homeland security efforts at the local level took the mission away from public safety efforts.

But, that's just one man's opinion. 

the only thing that changed 20 years ago was our reaction to what was going on in the world, since it came to us in a pretty disturbing way.  we have been the root cause of the same thing for decades, if not centuries, around the world.  as proof, when was the oklahoma city bombing, or how about the first attack on the wtc?   one was a pretty big act of terrorism from a white guy, but not much happened from what i recall.  i also recall not much being said about saudia arabia after that one.  then let a few foreigners take out a building or two and all hell breaks loose and we go to war forever.  yeah, still nothing on the saudis, but damn shame about iraq and afghanistan.  it's nice that you think they were focusing on public safety before then, but that's only if you had the right skin color, or were in the right neighborhood.

[jakee 1,254]

On 5/29/2021 at 11:02 AM, BIGUN said:

Morning, Joe.

I don't think defunding the police is a solution. I believe a shift towards three rings of LE would help, the first ring being more like "Community Service Officers" (CSO's).

Why does that ring need to be part of the police / law enforcement umbrella?

[jakee 1,254]

On 5/29/2021 at 2:46 PM, BIGUN said:

Traditional funding for law enforcement has undergone some significant changes, particularly with the ending of such U.S. Department of Justice (DOJ) programs as the Community-Oriented Policing Services (COPS), which provided LE with funding to hire and reassign officers to community-policing activities with that of terrorist preparedness funding from DHS – there was an attitudinal & behavioral shift. 

The focus shifted internally where the need for increased counterterrorism and homeland security efforts at the local level took the mission away from public safety efforts.

A lack of police funding for public safety efforts really isn't an issue. Police being the de facto agencies in charge of all kinds of social work and community support that have absolutely nothing to do law enforcement because they suck up so mch funding that there is nothing left for dedicated social workers is an issue.

[ryoder 1,381]

18 minutes ago, jakee said:

Why does that ring need to be part of the police / law enforcement umbrella?

Obviously, it doesn't:

Eugene, OR "CAHOOTS" program

Denver CO "STAR" program

[BIGUN 1,050]

4 hours ago, jakee said:

Why does that ring need to be part of the police / law enforcement umbrella?

Part of LE

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Community_service_officer

Edited May 30, 2021 by BIGUN

[BIGUN 1,050]

4 hours ago, jakee said:

Police being the de facto agencies in charge of all kinds of social work and community support that have absolutely nothing to do law enforcement because they suck up so mch funding that there is nothing left for dedicated social workers is an issue.

That was my point. We had more CSO's before 9/11

[jakee 1,254]

1 hour ago, BIGUN said:

That was my point. We had more CSO's before 9/11

CSOs are not social workers. They're not the people you want turning up for mental health crises, even if they're less likely to shoot the subject than the real cops are. They're not the people you want turning up when your troubled young child runs away, even if they're less likely to handcuff and pepper spray them than the real cops are. 

[billvon 2,384]

1 hour ago, jakee said:

CSOs are not social workers. 

Agreed - but - they are a step in the right direction.

[JoeWeber 2,294]

2 hours ago, jakee said:

CSOs are not social workers. They're not the people you want turning up for mental health crises, even if they're less likely to shoot the subject than the real cops are. They're not the people you want turning up when your troubled young child runs away, even if they're less likely to handcuff and pepper spray them than the real cops are. 

F'n stop it, jakee. Start looking at what people are thinking rather than looking at every post like a frog that needs dissecting. 

[jakee 1,254]

8 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

F'n stop it, jakee. Start looking at what people are thinking rather than looking at every post like a frog that needs dissecting. 

If you looked at what I was thinking instead of just looking for opportunities to continue a petty feud, then you might have something relevant to say instead of just pointless bloviating.

Yes, if you divert some money away from armed police (erm, defund them?) to pay for unarmed community officers you'll probably reduce the amount of active harm the police do in certain communities. If you divert some money away from them to pay for social workers and programs that have nothing whatsoever to do with the world of law enforcement then you could start to help.

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

6 hours ago, jakee said:

...Yes, if you divert some money away from armed police (erm, defund them?) to pay for unarmed community officers you'll probably reduce the amount of active harm the police do in certain communities. If you divert some money away from them to pay for social workers and programs that have nothing whatsoever to do with the world of law enforcement then you could start to help.

Bingo. 

Funding things that actually help the community is going to...

Help the community.

That's so obvious, it shouldn't require explanation.

Unfortunately, so many people see 'defund the police' as 'cut their funding so that they can't do their jobs'.
Included in those people is Florida gov DeSantis. 

I don't fully agree with the assertion that policing has completely changed since the terrorist attacks in 2001. Those attacks did cause a lot of diversion from 'community policing' projects to 'the War On Terrorism', but the militarization of the cops started long before that. 
The idea that a strong show of force is the best way to combat crime has long been the 'go-to' strategy for far too many cops & politicians for far too long.

[BIGUN 1,050]

On 5/31/2021 at 9:09 AM, wolfriverjoe said:

I don't fully agree with the assertion that policing has completely changed since the terrorist attacks in 2001. Those attacks did cause a lot of diversion from 'community policing' projects to 'the War On Terrorism', but the militarization of the cops started long before that. 

No. That's exactly when it started. When the cops went to a military uniform and the revenue stream (funding) changed.

[jakee 1,254]

3 hours ago, BIGUN said:

No. That's exactly when it started. When the cops went to a military uniform and the revenue stream (funding) changed.

That's absolutely not when it started. The US military's 1033 program specifically designed to distribute surplus equipment and weaponry to the police and other agencies has been running since the early '90s. If you look at the graph of gear per year on this page you'll see around 2001... pretty much nothing changed.

Swat teams have been buying military assault rifles since the '70s, ex-military armored vehicles since the early '80s. And ok it's federal not local, but the ATF turned up to Waco in the early '90s with actual Main Battle Tanks. They could do that because of legislation passed in 1981 allowing the military to give domestic law enforcement access to pretty much whatever they wanted for special occasions, all because of the War On Drugs. It's tempting to forget the US was fighting domestic wars before the War On Terror, but it pretty much always has been.

[BIGUN 1,050]

24 minutes ago, jakee said:

That's absolutely not when it started.

You're so busy trying to prove me wrong, that you didn't even look at the graph you provided? Some kind of Brent moment where you take the one data point to make your point - without looking at the whole trend. 

[jakee 1,254]

1 hour ago, BIGUN said:

You're so busy trying to prove me wrong, that you didn't even look at the graph you provided? Some kind of Brent moment where you take the one data point to make your point - without looking at the whole trend. 

I'm not trying to prove you wrong, you just happen to be clearly wrong. You can't say that the militarisation of the police started in 2001 unless you're being both crazily specific and generally ignoring what most people would understand by the word militarisation.

[BIGUN 1,050]

2 hours ago, jakee said:

I'm not trying to prove you wrong, you just happen to be clearly wrong. You can't say that the militarisation of the police started in 2001 unless you're being both crazily specific and generally ignoring what most people would understand by the word militarisation.

Alright, let's move this along. I concede to your exact specific date and that it escalated exponentially later.  

[kallend 1,621]

"Exponentially" does not mean "a lot".

[jakee 1,254]

12 hours ago, BIGUN said:

Alright, let's move this along. I concede to your exact specific date and that it escalated exponentially later.  

It’s your exact specific date, not mine. And it started significantly earlier. 
The need to defund the police and fund other social programs also stems largely from funding decisions that have nothing to do with an internal shift from community policing to counter terror. The police have, over a very long time, become a de facto response agency for all sorts of things which should be outside the sphere of any form of law enforcement.

[Phil1111 908]

1 minute ago, jakee said:

It’s your exact specific date, not mine. And it started significantly earlier. 
The need to defund the police and fund other social programs also stems largely from funding decisions that have nothing to do with an internal shift from community policing to counter terror. The police have, over a very long time, become a de facto response agency for all sorts of things which should be outside the sphere of any form of law enforcement.

I have to agree with Joe and BIGUN. Usually you make some good points but an exaggerated sense of pointed specificity. Sometimes leads to argument for the sake of argument.

Carry-on.