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The Trial of Derek Chauvin

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On 4/23/2021 at 2:34 PM, billvon said:

Depends on the situation, of course.  Is it someone who is drunk and is fumbling around in their jacket?  Then a taser might be the best approach.  Is it someone who just shot someone else, they see you and they draw their weapon?  Then deadly force would likely be the best choice.

There are absolutely cases where deadly force is appropriate.  It is also used as a first resort far too often (IMO.)

 

On 4/23/2021 at 3:12 PM, nwt said:

Yeah, I think we are pretty much in agreement.

But if there is a video thats all the evidence thats needed.

What? The video says deadly force was necessary and no deescalation by LE was necessary?

2 hours ago, nwt said:

I dunno, from the video it looks pretty clear that there was a high risk of the one girl getting stabbed right in the chest, which can easily be fatal even with first responders nearby.

OK the investigation and clearing the cops can be concluded right now.

Yet the girl with the knife had been armed for at least 15 minutes prior to the cop showing up.Nobody else was removed from the scene of the shooting having been injured.

8 minutes ago, nwt said:

I honestly don't see where you're going with this or what you want me to think about. What difference does it make to this discussion if the person killed was the one who made the 911 call?

What if the girl with the knife was defending herself? What if the girls she lunged at were the aggressors and had been so for what would have been over 15 minutes?

You seem to think that the video is all the evidence thats necessary. Yet you concede that it depends on the situation.

I'm done making the point that one video is not open and shut Prima Facie of what occurred.

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2 minutes ago, Phil1111 said:

done making the point that one video is not open and shut Prima Facie of what occurred.

So you're done defending a position nobody has been disputing? Good, that seems like a waste of time. 

Quote

I dunno, from the video it looks pretty clear that there was a high risk of the one girl getting stabbed right in the chest, which can easily be fatal even with first responders nearby.

My quote, your emphasis. I'm lost how you got from here to "open and shut prima facie" or "I guess no investigation is needed". If you have other evidence, feel free to share it.

Remember, the cop is the defendant in this scenario and he's presumed innocent until guilty. You really don't think the video introduces reasonable doubt that his use of force was inappropriate?

12 minutes ago, Phil1111 said:

What? The video says deadly force was necessary and no deescalation by LE was necessary?

Your rhetorical questions are adding nothing to the discussion. If you are interpreting the video differently from everyone else, could you just come out and tell us what you think of it and why instead of this nonsense?

 

16 minutes ago, Phil1111 said:

Yet the girl with the knife had been armed for at least 15 minutes prior to the cop showing up.Nobody else was removed from the scene of the shooting having been injured.

I still don't understand your point with this.

17 minutes ago, Phil1111 said:

What if the girl with the knife was defending herself? What if the girls she lunged at were the aggressors and had been so for what would have been over 15 minutes?

I struggle to understand how lunging at someone could be considered self defense, regardless of what happened prior and who the initial aggressors were. Why don't you walk us through the video and explain how and why you think self-defense is plausible here. I'm sure we'd agree that vengeance and self-defense are two completely different things, right?

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On 4/22/2021 at 12:07 PM, RonD1120 said:

IMO: If you are a white cop in a major metropolitan area, resign.

Ron, I'm sure you'll be overjoyed to here that the Chauvin conviction hasn't lessened the work ethic of the American police. It took them one day to do the same thing all over again. One. Day. Body-camera video shows officer kneeling on man for five minutes before he dies

But hey - the dude was sitting alone on a park bench with some booze they thought he maybe possibly might have shoplifted because why not? Clearly it was imperative to subdue this menace to society!

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8 hours ago, Phil1111 said:

It's a world away from the United States, where cops killed 1,092 people in 2016, according to figures compiled by The Guardian....

Some police have complained that officers are reluctant to sign up for firearms training because they fear being dragged through years of lengthy investigations in the unlikely event they have to use their weapon.

"Officers have seen what happens to their colleagues who have had to use lethal force to protect the public," outgoing Metropolitan Police Commissioner Bernard Hogan-Howe told reporters earlier this year. "Increasingly, they seem to be portrayed as suspects, based, I can only assume, on an underlying belief that they must have acted in a criminal fashion if someone has died."

I think Mr Hogan-Howe misses the point. If police are increasingly viewed as suspect in the UK when they shoot someone, it's because even with the small number of people killed by police in the UK too many of them turn out to be wrongly killed. The Jean-Charles de Menezes murder is the perfect example. A clusterfuck of an operation, a wrongful death, and a Metropolitan Police department who immediately and repeatedly lied about what happened until video evidence proved that they were lying.

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4 hours ago, jakee said:

Ron, I'm sure you'll be overjoyed to here that the Chauvin conviction hasn't lessened the work ethic of the American police. It took them one day to do the same thing all over again. One. Day. Body-camera video shows officer kneeling on man for five minutes before he dies

Not as egregious as Chauvin to be sure, but still pretty horrifying.

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19 hours ago, BIGUN said:

Tim, you have really got to go back and read the proposed plan. 

no, i don't think so.  i wasn't remaking on the plan, i was wondering what your thoughts on some mitigation would be.  i value the opinion of operators more than regular soldiers in regard to weapons, and former military more than civilians with no experience with them.

19 hours ago, nwt said:

I dunno, from the video it looks pretty clear that there was a high risk of the one girl getting stabbed right in the chest, which can easily be fatal even with first responders nearby.

Other countries seem to have better results with less force, and I think that's something to strive for. But, I don't know how we get there. If you took someone else's police system and plopped it down here overnight, it would be a disaster.

in the video, it shows the girl getting shot.  that happened, so it's hard to take that out, but try since the question i responded to was along the lines of what would've happened had he not shot her.  my scenario is a possible outcome, and of all the knife fights i have been in, i have never once saw anyone stand still and get stabbed.  they usually move out of the way, but the really crazy ones (like i used to be) lunge toward the assailant.  it may hurt a bit, but i can take a knife from most folks.  if i were a cop, and had special training instead of just a three month course and a gun, i would have had a much better chance at not getting hurt.  if i ever saw a person holding a knife with the blade up, i was more cautious, as that meant they were trying to kill me and had a clue how.  it hasn't happened often, but often enough that i know what to expect and how to respond.  running away is usually the best choice, although not as fun and sometimes not an option.

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On 4/22/2021 at 3:22 PM, SkyDekker said:

If you have people spending lifetimes in jail for shoplifting or smoking a joint, what exactly is the appropriate punishment for kneeling on somebody's neck for 9 minutes until they are dead?

You have people in jail over parking tickets and unpaid court fees. You would think that proponents of civil liberties and the constitution would be appalled by this huge miscarriage of justice, but the revenue for the corrections industry and the tough on "crime" punishment fetish must outweigh all those other fluff convictions. I guess if those people aren't from your neighborhood, income bracket, or they don't look like you the circumstances don't set off the small government personal rights spidey sense.

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(edited)
3 hours ago, sfzombie13 said:

no, i don't think so.  i wasn't remaking on the plan, i was wondering what your thoughts on some mitigation would be.  i value the opinion of operators more than regular soldiers in regard to weapons, and former military more than civilians with no experience with them.

That's all in the proposed plan. w/r/t this stabbing matter (or the other shootings going on) . . . you know the role of the military - civilian police are required to have 100x more restraint, training and interaction with civilians/citizens. From what I've seen; the military has more discipline for their environment, than the police for theirs.  

Edited by BIGUN

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3 hours ago, sfzombie13 said:

no, i don't think so.  i wasn't remaking on the plan, i was wondering what your thoughts on some mitigation would be.  i value the opinion of operators more than regular soldiers in regard to weapons, and former military more than civilians with no experience with them.

in the video, it shows the girl getting shot.  that happened, so it's hard to take that out, but try since the question i responded to was along the lines of what would've happened had he not shot her.  my scenario is a possible outcome, and of all the knife fights i have been in, i have never once saw anyone stand still and get stabbed.  they usually move out of the way, but the really crazy ones (like i used to be) lunge toward the assailant.  it may hurt a bit, but i can take a knife from most folks.  if i were a cop, and had special training instead of just a three month course and a gun, i would have had a much better chance at not getting hurt.  if i ever saw a person holding a knife with the blade up, i was more cautious, as that meant they were trying to kill me and had a clue how.  it hasn't happened often, but often enough that i know what to expect and how to respond.  running away is usually the best choice, although not as fun and sometimes not an option.

Well to be honest I've never been in a knife fight or seen one in person, so I'll defer to you on how they go. I definitely agree that cops should have a lot more training.

edit: I also agree that cops should be doing much more to de-escalate in general, even if I'm unsure about the specifics of this case.

Edited by nwt

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23 minutes ago, nwt said:

edit: I also agree that cops should be doing much more to de-escalate in general, even if I'm unsure about the specifics of this case.

IMO: The officer was too far away to do anything other than shoot. There's no way he could have got to her in time from that distance before the knife was thrust into the other girl. If I had a criticism about the officers actions; it would be his failure to "look past the shot." When I first saw it; it puckered my ass because you can see people in the background. I "don't think" he had to shoot to kill and was waiting for other video viewpoints before addressing this issue.

Of concern is - on more than one occasion it's been reported that police had been on-site for several minutes. How come this wasn't de-escalated before it escalated to this point.    

Edited by BIGUN
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17 minutes ago, BIGUN said:

IMO: The officer was too far away to do anything other than shoot. There's no way he could have got to her in time from that distance before the knife was thrust into the other girl. If I had a criticism about the officers actions; it would be his failure to "look past the shot." When I first saw it; it puckered my ass because you can see people in the background. I "don't think" he had to shoot to kill and was waiting for other video viewpoints before addressing this issue.

Of concern is - on more than one occasion it's been reported that police had been on-site for several minutes. How come this wasn't de-escalated before it escalated to this point.    

Agreed.  You could quibble about his judgment but there's little doubt that attempting to prevent a stabbing - especially as the assailant is lunging at the victim - justifies deadly force.

The better question is how things could have been handled such that deadly force was not needed.

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1 hour ago, BIGUN said:

IMO: The officer was too far away to do anything other than shoot. There's no way he could have got to her in time from that distance before the knife was thrust into the other girl. If I had a criticism about the officers actions; it would be his failure to "look past the shot." When I first saw it; it puckered my ass because you can see people in the background. I "don't think" he had to shoot to kill and was waiting for other video viewpoints before addressing this issue.

Of concern is - on more than one occasion it's been reported that police had been on-site for several minutes. How come this wasn't de-escalated before it escalated to this point.    

i disagree with one thing in your assessment, the no other options part.  i suppose the other girls could have frozen and not turn away, nor stick out a hand, or anything else and just get stabbed in the chest.  it also takes a great deal of force to shove a knife through in that location, unless you get lucky or are skilled enough to miss the ribs.  all of that comes down to training.  when folks are taught to shoot, and not anything else, that's what they know how to do.  there are ways folks can be taught how to disarm a knife wielding opponent, but as i said, some of them hurt.  this is where we need to focus the police training, NOT using deadly force when ANY other option is available.  hell, throwing a baton at the girls feet accurately COULD have tripped her up and allowed the other girls to dodge or her to miss. 

 

all of that is armchair quarterbacking though and doesn't add much to the conversation other than presenting other options.  your last concern is the really important part, and i didn't notice that when i watched the video.

 

1 hour ago, nwt said:

Well to be honest I've never been in a knife fight or seen one in person, so I'll defer to you on how they go. I definitely agree that cops should have a lot more training.

edit: I also agree that cops should be doing much more to de-escalate in general, even if I'm unsure about the specifics of this case.

i've only been in a few, and that was decades ago when i was young and stupid.  i don't have any special training, just cat like reflexes and a very high pain tolerance, combined with no fear of dying.  that made me a hell of a person to pick on back in the day.  these days, i'm old.  that's what the pistol is for.  i also carry a combat lifesaver kit so i can assist anyone in need.  most concealed carry advocates miss that vital part of the social compact regarding weapons and protecting people and themselves.

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2 hours ago, sfzombie13 said:

i disagree with one thing in your assessment, the no other options part.  i suppose the other girls could have frozen and not turn away, nor stick out a hand, or anything else and just get stabbed in the chest.  it also takes a great deal of force to shove a knife through in that location, unless you get lucky or are skilled enough to miss the ribs.  all of that comes down to training.  when folks are taught to shoot, and not anything else, that's what they know how to do.  there are ways folks can be taught how to disarm a knife wielding opponent, but as i said, some of them hurt.  this is where we need to focus the police training, NOT using deadly force when ANY other option is available.  hell, throwing a baton at the girls feet accurately COULD have tripped her up and allowed the other girls to dodge or her to miss. 

 

all of that is armchair quarterbacking though and doesn't add much to the conversation other than presenting other options.  your last concern is the really important part, and i didn't notice that when i watched the video.

 

i've only been in a few, and that was decades ago when i was young and stupid.  i don't have any special training, just cat like reflexes and a very high pain tolerance, combined with no fear of dying.  that made me a hell of a person to pick on back in the day.  these days, i'm old.  that's what the pistol is for.  i also carry a combat lifesaver kit so i can assist anyone in need.  most concealed carry advocates miss that vital part of the social compact regarding weapons and protecting people and themselves.

Interesting the suggestion to possibly throw a baton to trip up the knife wielding girl. Can police do nothing else but shoot to kill? Why not a good shot to the thigh? I wondered the same thing years ago when SFPD unloaded on a clearly mentally disturbed individual in the city who also had a knife.

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8 minutes ago, murps2000 said:

Why not a good shot to the thigh?

Here the answer is always that if you are going to shoot, you shoot to kill. I have a family member in the Dutch police who has told me many times their firearms training does not take that approach.

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16 minutes ago, murps2000 said:

Interesting the suggestion to possibly throw a baton to trip up the knife wielding girl. Can police do nothing else but shoot to kill? Why not a good shot to the thigh? I wondered the same thing years ago when SFPD unloaded on a clearly mentally disturbed individual in the city who also had a knife.

A thigh is a much smaller target than center mass. These are police officers not expert marksmen, and trick shooting runs a higher risk of shooting bystanders. They aren't trained to do that.

If there were multiple officers, and they were on scene for more than a few minutes it makes me wonder if one of them had better non lethal options than hot sauce and stun guns available to them. I didn't see the video, and don't want to armchair QB, but a shot gun with non lethal rounds will drop most people and they get to live and maybe course correct their life.

Edited by DougH

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23 minutes ago, murps2000 said:

Why not a good shot to the thigh?

We have all heard the answer to this many times. You don't shoot to kill, you shoot to stop. The death of the person shot is just an unfortunate consequence of the fact that the most sure way of stopping someone with bullets is almost always deadly.

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17 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

We have all heard the answer to this many times. You don't shoot to kill, you shoot to stop. The death of the person shot is just an unfortunate consequence of the fact that the most sure way of stopping someone with bullets is almost always deadly.

Not all police departments in the western world have those policies.

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2 hours ago, gowlerk said:

Possibly. But I don’t know of any. Can you point to any police force that trains to shoot to wound?

The Dutch police department's policy is to aim for the legs unless there is "noodweer", which is defined more or less as immediate lethal danger for officer or member of the public. Question is of course remains if being potentially stabbed is considered immediate lethal danger. I have posed the question to a Dutch officer.

Outlined here, though you will need to translate from Dutch.

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46 minutes ago, SkyDekker said:

The Dutch police department's policy is to aim for the legs unless there is "noodweer", which is defined more or less as immediate lethal danger for officer or member of the public. Question is of course remains if being potentially stabbed is considered immediate lethal danger. I have posed the question to a Dutch officer.

Outlined here, though you will need to translate from Dutch.

Hi Sky,

Here is some of it:

Officers regularly come into situations where violence must be used. For example, in an argument, a fleeing suspect or when a person wants to hurt someone else. Sometimes the violence is directed at the officer himself. Officers are trained to deal with all of these situations and, if necessary, use their baton, pepper spray or firearm.

 The police have the power to use force to carry out their task of maintaining the rule of law. The violence used must always be proportionate to the situation and the crime. This is also called 'proportional and subsidiary'. In a dangerous situation, the police try to de-escalate. First, the officer uses his voice to claim the suspect to do something or not to do anything. If this is not possible, he or she scales up to the use of weapons; for example pepper spray, the baton or deployment of the police dog. It's only at the last minute that the officer grabs his firearm. He can fire a warning shot. When there is severe weather, an agent often does not have time to de-escalate. He'll have the authority to shoot right away. An officer is also allowed to shoot to apprehend someone suspected of a serious offence. In those situations, the officer learned to aim at the suspect's legs. In the event of severe weather, the officer is allowed to shoot at the suspect's torso.

Jerry Baumchen

 

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4 hours ago, DougH said:

A thigh is a much smaller target than center mass. These are police officers not expert marksmen, and trick shooting runs a higher risk of shooting bystanders. They aren't trained to do that.

If there were multiple officers, and they were on scene for more than a few minutes it makes me wonder if one of them had better non lethal options than hot sauce and stun guns available to them. I didn't see the video, and don't want to armchair QB, but a shot gun with non lethal rounds will drop most people and they get to live and maybe course correct their life.

All fair points, and that’s not even to mention the stress of each situation. I don’t mean to armchair quarterback either. I’ve just never  seen the tactic used and wondered why. You can’t really do much with a knife if only one leg works.

the incident I was thinking about is this one from 6 years ago.

https://abc7news.com/san-francisco-police-shooting-in-instagram-bayview-district-caught-on-video-sfpd-shoot-man-stabbing/1107491/

To be fair, SFPD tried non lethal options but couldn’t get the man to stop. It seemed to me at the time there were enough guys there shooting that they could easily have taken out his legs. Sorry I guess that actually is armchair quarterbacking, and in hindsight no less. All of your points could apply.

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