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Jimbo

Tandem Masters and HIV

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Rhino suggested a poll on this subject, so here it is.

Does the student have a right to know that his/her tandem master has a terminal, and contagious, disease?

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Jim
"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

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Lepracy or something then maybe. HIV etc no. It'd just freak the student out.



Why not HIV, or hepatitus? Doesn't the student have a right to know that in addition to the risks of skydiving that he's also exposing himself to uncurable, and eventually terminal diseases?

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Jim
"Like" - The modern day comma
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Does the student have a right to know that his/her tandem master has a terminal, and contagious, disease?

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Jim



I voted yes. I think people should have the right to decide for themselves what risks they do and do not want to take...and they can only do so with full informed consent (which means they have to be told the BRAN...Benefits Risks Alternatives Nothing...).

If the tandem decides no...that should be their right. If the tandem decides yes...that, too, should be their right.
Same thing as if there is a tandem student with a contageous disease, the tandem master should have the full disclosure so they could say yes or no...

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Elfanie
My Skydiving Page
Fly Safe - Soft Landings

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Not that it necessarily matters, but how often do tandems draw blood? I mean, I know it happens sometimes.

Also, should a TM have the right to know if his student has HIV? I mean, I assume that would be covered on the waiver anyway, but is the TM necessarily informed?

Dave

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Not that it necessarily matters, but how often do tandems draw blood? I mean, I know it happens sometimes.



I just finished watching a video not 10 minutes ago where the tandem master had a face covered in blood. It happens.

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Also, should a TM have the right to know if his student has HIV? I mean, I assume that would be covered on the waiver anyway, but is the TM necessarily informed?



The TM should absolutely be informed. Just like the case of the TM/Student, in the case of Student/TM, it's the TMs decision to make. He has a right to know.

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Jim
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I think the key word is contagious, and HIV is contagious, especially b/c this is a sport with a large amount of kinetic energy in which accidents frequently draw blood.

Likewise I'd want information about meningitis, influenza, tuberculosis, hepatitis etc. for both tandem students and instructors.

I believe that part of the typical waiver that students sign includes a declaration of disabilities...

It's not about stigma, it's about epidemiology.

$0.02

nathaniel
My advice is to do what your parents did; get a job, sir. The bums will always lose. Do you hear me, Lebowski?

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it`s all about the way how the disseas can be transmissible
i think we CANT talk about HIV hepatitus C and other "blood transmison way malady" in the same place with other malady that have an easy transmison way
sorry for my bad english


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"jump, have fun, pull"

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I think the key word is contagious, and HIV is contagious, especially b/c this is a sport with a large amount of kinetic energy in which accidents frequently draw blood.

Likewise I'd want information about meningitis, influenza, tuberculosis, hepatitis etc. for both tandem students and instructors.

I believe that part of the typical waiver that students sign includes a declaration of disabilities...

It's not about stigma, it's about epidemiology.

$0.02

nathaniel

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You know there is one extremely contageous disease that is underappreciated around DZs in particular, but all to prevalent - herpes symplex on the mouth in the form of cold sores. You know that is transmittabe even if sores are not present! Yuck!
I used to let people give me a hello kiss at the DZ, but anymore I always turn my head and kiss the cheek. I even insist my S.O. does not allow girls to kiss his mouth, it's just too dangerous!
On > 1 occasion I have had people kiss me on the mouth only to notice afterwards that they did in fact have the remainance of a cold sore, often obscured by facial hair! They just say, well, it's been there a week already and is almost gone! Or Hell, it's just a cold sore, I get them all the time, everyone does! AAAHHHHH I don't and don't want them!
That's not good enough!
I don't want to ever get herpes cold sores on my face! People around the DZ ought to be more considerate of others and not share their disease! HIV is bad enough, but cold sores scar you for life like a scarlet letter, and you don't even have to be intimate with anyone to get them, therefore are much easier to catch!

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The best course of action to use is what we call in the medical profession as "Universal Precautions". It is protected by law for a person not to reveal their medical status if they are HIV+ if they don't want to.

So, we treat everyone the same and protect ourselves from bodily fluid transfer.

If they have an open sore, we do not touch it with an ungloved hand. If -we- have an open area, we protect them from us.

That's not to say we have to wear protective gear against each other at the DZ, but that we should be aware and informed on how to be smart.

Yes, accidents do happen, and if they do I would hope that the parties involved would be candid and inform those of the risk. If not, they have the right to their privacy.

If there wasn't such a phobia about these diseases, and people were accepted as humans just like the rest of us, this personal protective privacy wouldn't be such a big need. They would share, we would accept, and we would all live without prejudice.

It's just too bad we have to live like this.

btw, did you know that hepatitis is -alot- easier to catch than HIV?

ltdiver

Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon

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So, we treat everyone the same and protect ourselves from bodily fluid transfer.



Which works well when you're arriving to the scene to treat someone. It doesn't work so well when skydiving becomes the full contact sport that it can.

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If not, they have the right to their privacy.



I understand that the law provides for the legal right to privacy, however I'm not concerned at this point with the law. I'm concerned with what I perceive as a moral obligation to inform someone who you might just get bloody with that you have a terminal, and contagious disease.

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If there wasn't such a phobia about these diseases, and people were accepted as humans just like the rest of us, this personal protective privacy wouldn't be such a big need. They would share, we would accept, and we would all live without prejudice.



Agreed, but that's a whole different thread. :)
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btw, did you know that hepatitis is -alot- easier to catch than HIV?



Yes. That's why I mentioned it in an earlier post.

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Jim
"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

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Since you seem to know about this sort of thing. How easily could you catch herpes symplex cold sores from kissing people at the DZ? :o



I saw your other post. Is this something that you really are afraid of catching? I've read that you have taken steps to protect yourself....which is good. Others should do the same.

An open sore is a contagious one. If you don't want to possibly contract, then don't let it touch any open surface of yours.

If it is cleared, then there is no risk.

My sister has cold sores when she gets too much sun and/or is stressed. I don't. She was exposed at some time in our growing up....luckily for me, I was not. And like you, I prefer to stay that way.

Being smart is not rocket science. But don't be phobic either. ;)

ltdiver

Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon

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All very good points.

Since the law is what it is, and the possibility of increased risk with our sport remains....if a TM feels strongly about possibly be exposed, he should not jump with others attached to him.

We cannot discriminate. I would hope that if a person has a communicable disease they would be forth with in their information. But that is not what happens most of the time.

And so we are left with:

1) Jump with them and protect ourselves the best we can (without being phobic).

or

2) Don't jump with them and give up the tandem-mastership you've grown to love.

Those are the only 2 options we have right now.

ltdiver

Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon

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Thanks for your concern...
Yes, it is something I am terrified of catching! I have read every website on the stuff, and apparently you still can catch it even it sores aren't visible, especially if you have chapped lips or broken skin, that it is shedding all the time. They even make that disclaimer on the TV adds for Valrex and other herpes meds. How is it that all the other 80% of people got it? Did they all kiss someone with visible open sores? I am not being rude or mean, just curious and scared especially about all the kissing on DZs. :)

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btw, did you know that hepatitis is -alot- easier to catch than HIV?

ltdiver



I'm in the medical field (I attend births for a living)....and so you betcha sweet bootie I knew that.
HIV makes me cautious.
HepB makes me cringe inside and fearful. Scary stuff...

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Elfanie
My Skydiving Page
Fly Safe - Soft Landings

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That is ridiculous! HIV is similar to Hepatitis -- contagious, transferred from bodily fluids -- yet the main problem is HIV?! How would you like it if you had to disclose that information to a complete stranger?

Having HIV or any other chronic illness has nothing to do with the quality of training or safety the student will receive. People who are uneducated about this or fearful contribute to the negative connotation attached to being HIV positive. HIV positive does not always translate to AIDS.

see the world! http://gorocketdog.blogspot.com

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I understand that the law provides for the legal right to privacy, however I'm not concerned at this point with the law. I'm concerned with what I perceive as a moral obligation to inform someone who you might just get bloody with that you have a terminal, and contagious disease.



WHY DO YOU THINK THERE IS THAT LAW? Because it is part of someone's personal life that does not affect the quality of his/her profession!

Yes, to a degree people with the disease have a "moral obligation".... but so does everyone else. Obviously the person who he/she contracted HIV from had a "moral obligation" -- but didn't disclose that information.

Since you seem so adament about knowing everyone's personal business, how would you like to walk around with a sign around your neck saying: "hi, i've had unprotected sex with 60 people" -- you would feel labeled & like a social outcast would you not? It's the same scenario by demanding that people inform you whether or not they are HIV+.

see the world! http://gorocketdog.blogspot.com

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WHY DO YOU THINK THERE IS THAT LAW? Because it is part of someone's personal life that does not affect the quality of his/her profession!



It depends on the profession.
Aren't boxers legally required to share medical status?
I know that thre were things I had to be screened for when I was a preschool teacher...and that was not private.

it's not the quality of work that concerns people....it's the safety of those you are working with.

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Yes, to a degree people with the disease have a "moral obligation".... but so does everyone else. Obviously the person who he/she contracted HIV from had a "moral obligation" -- but didn't disclose that information.



Or maybe they didn't know.
Do you have any idea how many people are HIV+ and just don't know it?

(this is the reason we in the medical field use universal precautions)

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Since you seem so adament about knowing everyone's personal business, how would you like to walk around with a sign around your neck saying: "hi, i've had unprotected sex with 60 people" -- you would feel labeled & like a social outcast would you not? It's the same scenario by demanding that people inform you whether or not they are HIV+.



Not true...not true at all. big difference between walking around with a sign that says, "I had a threesome with my roomate" and telling someone you are becoming intimate with, "I have HepB.."

the thing about telling TMs or telling a tandem student about HIV or HepB status isn't a morality one as to how they got the disease....it's one of protection from the other person who might be at risk of contracting the disease from them. big big difference.

Although I wonder why you'd assume that disclosing this information in a tandem situation means that there is a stigma attached to it..? I cringe from HepB...not because of the person or how they got it, but because I don't want the disease! Big big difference...

and allowing people the opportunity to protect themselves...what's wrong with that?

I've caught babies without gloves...not intentionally, but it's happened. (sometimes it happens quickly) If I knew that she was HIV+ or HepB+, I wouldn't have taken my gloves off..period. Now, does that make it right for me to not have used universal precautions? No..absolutely not...it was stupid and risky...
however..not as risky as it could be as medical information was disclosed.

I have no a problem with disclosing risk factors and allowing people to choose whether they want to accept that risk or not...
what is the benefit to hiding it?

--------------------------------------------
Elfanie
My Skydiving Page
Fly Safe - Soft Landings

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That is ridiculous! HIV is similar to Hepatitis -- contagious, transferred from bodily fluids -- yet the main problem is HIV?! How would you like it if you had to disclose that information to a complete stranger?



The post that you replied to made no mention of HIV, and if you'll continue reading this thread you'll see that I made a reference to HIV and Hepatitus, two terminal, and contagious, diseases.

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Having HIV or any other chronic illness has nothing to do with the quality of training or safety the student will receive. People who are uneducated about this or fearful contribute to the negative connotation attached to being HIV positive. HIV positive does not always translate to AIDS.



I'm not talking about quality of training, nor am I passing judgement on how the disease was contracted. What I am suggesting (and you'll figure this out if you keep reading), is that in certain cases that there is a moral obligation to share this information. I don't think it's important to share HIV or Hepatitus status with the waitress at the local diner. I do think it's important to share this information with someone you might get bloody with (think terrible landing with a tandem), or exchange bodily fluids with.

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Since you seem so adament about knowing everyone's personal business, how would you like to walk around with a sign around your neck saying: "hi, i've had unprotected sex with 60 people" -- you would feel labeled & like a social outcast would you not? It's the same scenario by demanding that people inform you whether or not they are HIV+.



Whoa. Now slow down there, Rocketdog. I'm not advocating that anyone be forced to walk around with a scarlet letter. This post, and line of thinking, is about safety, and a realistic representation of risk. Nothing more.

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Jim
"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

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